250. DISPUTATION OF CRANMER AT OXFORD
The arguments, reasons, and allegations used in this disputation.
On Monday, Dr. Weston, with all the residue of the visitors, censors, and opponents, repairing to the divinity school, each one installed himself in his place. Dr. Cranmer, with a rout of rusty bills, was brought thither, and set in the answerer's place, with the mayor and aldermen sitting by him; where Dr. Weston, prolocutor, apparelled in a scarlet gown after the custom of the university, began the disputation with this oration. His words, as he spake them, were these:
"Ye are assembled hither, brethren, this day, to confound the detestable heresy of the verity of the body of Christ in the sacrament," &c. At which words thus pronounced of the prolocutor unawares, divers of the learned men there present, considering and well weighing the words by him uttered, burst out into a great laughter, as though, even in the entrance of the disputations, he had betrayed himself and his religion, that termed the opinion of the verity of Christ's body in the sacrament, a detestable heresy. The rest of his oration tended all to this effect, that it was not lawful by God's word to call these questions into controversy: for such as doubted of the words of Christ, might well be thought to doubt both of the truth and power of God. Whereunto Dr. Cranmer, desiring licence, answered in this wise.
"We are assembled," saith he, "to discuss these doubtful controversies, and to lay them open before the eyes of the world; whereof ye think it unlawful to dispute. It is indeed no reason," saith he, "that we should dispute of that which is determined upon, before the truth be tried. But if these questions be not called into controversy, surely mine answer then is looked for in vain."
This was the sum and effect of his answer; and, this done, he prepared himself to disputation.
Then Chedsey, the first opponent, began in this wise to dispute.
"Reverend Master Doctor, these three conclusions are put forth unto us at this present, to dispute upon;
"First, in the sacrament of the altar is the natural body of Christ, conceived of the Virgin Mary, and also his blood present really under the forms of bread and wine, by virtue of God's word pronounced by the priest.
"Secondly, there remaineth no substance of bread and wine after the consecration, nor any other substance, but the substance of God and man.
"Thirdly, the lively sacrifice of the church is in the mass propitiatory, as well for the quick as the dead.
"These he the conclusions propounded, whereupon this our present controversy doth rest. Now, to the end we might not doubt how you take the same, you have already given up unto us youropinion thereof: I term it your opinion, in that it disagreeth from the catholic. Wherefore I thus argue:
"Your opinion differeth from the Scripture: "Ergo, you are deceived."
Cranmer.--"I deny the antecedent."
Chedsey.--"Christ, when he instituted his last supper, spake to his disciples, Take, eat: this is my body which shall be given for you.
"But his true body was given for us:
"Ergo, his true body is in the sacrament.
"The right form of this argument is thus to be framed:
"The same which was given for us is in the sacrament.
"But his true body was given for us:
"Ergo, his true body is in the sacrament."
Cranmer.--"His true body is truly present to them that truly receive him: but spiritually. And so it is taken after a spiritual sort; for when he said, This is my body, it is all one as if he had said, This is the breaking of my body; this is the shedding of my blood.--As oft as you shall do this, it shall put you in remembrance of the breaking of my body, and the shedding of my blood; that as truly as you receive this sacrament, so truly shall you receive the benefit promised by receiving the same worthily."
Chedsey.--"Your opinion differeth from the church, which saith, that the true body is in the sacrament:
"Ergo, your opinion therein is false."
Cranmer.--"I say and agree with the church, that the body of Christ is in the sacrament effectually, because the passion of Christ is effectual."
Chedsey.--"Christ, when he spake these words, This is my body, spake of the substance, but not of the effect."
Cranmer.--"I grant he spake of the substance, and not of the effect after a sort: and yet it is most true that the body of Christ is effectually in the sacrament. But I deny that he is there truly present in bread, or that under the bread is his organical body."
And because it should be too tedious (he said) to make discourse of the whole, he delivered up there his opinion thereof to Dr. Weston, written at large; with answers to every one of their three propositions, which he desired Dr. Weston, sitting there on high, to read openly to the people; which he promised to do. But it was not the first promise that such papists have broken.
The copy of this writing, although it were not there read, yet the contents thereof we have drawn out as followeth.
"In the assertions of the church and of religion, trifling and new-fangled novelties of words, so much as may be, are to be eschewed, whereof ariseth nothing but contention and brawling about words; and we must follow, so much as we may, the manner of speaking of the Scripture.
"In the first conclusion, if ye understand by this word 'really' in very deed and effectually, so Christ, by the grace and efficacy of his passion, is indeed and truly present to all his true and holy members.
"But if ye understand by this word really' 'corporally,' so that by the body of Christ is understood a natural body and organical; so, the first proposition doth vary, not only from the usual speech and phrase of Scripture, but also is clean contrary to the holy word of God, and Christian profession: when as both the Scripture doth testify by these words, and also the catholic church hath professed from the beginning,-- Christ to have left the world, and to sit at the right hand of the Father till he come to judgment.
"And likewise I answer to the second question; that is, that it swerveth from the accustomed manner and speech of Scripture.
"The third conclusion, as it is intricate and wrapped in all doubtful and ambiguous words, and differing also much from the true speech of the Scripture, so as the words thereof seem to import no open sense; is most contumelious against our only Lord and Saviour Christ Jesus, and a violating of his precious blood, which, upon the altar of the cross, is the only sacrifice and oblation for the sins of all mankind."
Chedsey.--"By this your interpretation which you have made upon the first conclusion, this I understand,-- the body of Christ to be in the sacrament only by the way of participation: insomuch as we, communicating thereof, do participate the grace of Christ, so that you mean hereby only the effect thereof. But our conclusion standeth upon the substance, and not the efficacy only, which shall appear by the testimony both of Scriptures, and of all the fathers a thousand years after Christ.
"And first, (to begin with the Scripture,) let us consider what is written in Matt. xxvi., Mark xiv., Luke xxii., and 1 Cor. xi. Matthew saith, As they sat at supper, Jesus took bread, &c. In Mark there is the same sense, although not the same words, who, also, for one part of the sacrament speaketh more plainly, Jesus taking bread, &c. After the same sense also writeth Luke xxii., And when Jesus had taken bread, &c. In the mouth of two or three witnesses, saith the Scripture, standeth all truth. Here we have three witnesses together, that Christ said that to be his body, which was given for many; and that to be his blood, which should be shed for many: whereby is declared the substance, and not only the efficacy alone thereof. Ergo, it is not true that you say, there to be not the substance of his body, but the efficacy alone thereof."
Cranmer.--"Thus you gather upon mine answer, as though I did mean of the efficacy, and not of the substance of the body; but I mean of them both, as well of the efficacy as of the substance. And, forasmuch as all things come not readily to memory, to a man that shall speak extempore, therefore, for the more ample and fuller answer in this matter, this writing here I do exhibit."
A further explication exhibited by Cranmer.
"Our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, at the time of his maundy -- preparing himself to die for our cause, that he might redeem us from eternal death, forgive us all our sins, and cancel out the handwriting that was against us -- that we, through ungrateful oblivion, should not forget his death, therefore, at the time of his holy supper, did institute a perpetual memory of this his death, to be celebrated among Christians in bread and wine, according as it is said: Do this in remembrance of me; and, So often as you eat this bread, and drink this cup, you shall show forth the Lord's death, till he come. And this remembrance or sacrament of his holy passion, that is, of his body slain, and blood shed, he would all Christians to frequent and celebrate in bread and wine, according as he said, Take, eat; and drink ye all of this. Therefore, whosoever, for man's tradition, denieth the cup of Christ's blood to laymen, they manifestly repugn against Christ, forbidding that which Christ commandeth to be done, and be like to those scribes and Pharisees of whom the Lord spake: Ye hypocrites, ye have rejected the commandments of God for your traditions. Well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me. Without cause do they worship me, teaching the doctrines and precepts of men. The sacrament and mystical bread being broken and distributed after the institution of Christ, and the mystical wine being likewise taken and received, be not only sacraments of the flesh of Christ wounded for us, and of his blood-shedding, but also be most certain sacraments for us, and (as a man would say) seals of God's promises and gifts, and also of that holy fellowship which we have with Christ and all his members. Moreover, they he to us memorials of that heavenly food and nourishment, wherewith we are nourished unto eternal life, and the thirst of our boiling conscience [is] quenched; and finally, whereby the hearts of the faithful be replenished with unspeakable joy, and be corroborated and strengthened unto all works of godliness. We are many, saith St. Paul, one bread, and one body, all we which do participate of one bread, and one cup. And Christ saith, Eat ye; this is my body; and, Drink ye.; this is my blood. And, I am the living bread which came down from heaven. He that eateth me, shall also live for ever. Not as your fathers did eat manna in the desert, and are dead: he that eateth me, shall also live for ever.
"Thus, therefore, true bread and true wine remain still in the eucharist (until they be consumed of the faithful) to be signs, and as seals unto us annexed unto God's promises, making us certain of God's gifts towards us. Also Christ remaineth in them, and they in Christ, which eat his flesh, and drink his blood, as Christ himself hath promised: They that eat my flesh, and drink my blood, abide in me, and I in them. Moreover, he abideth also in them which worthily receive the outward sacrament; neither doth he depart so soon as the sacrament is consumed, but continually abideth, feeding and nourishing us so long as we remain bodies of that Head, and members of the same. I acknowledge not here the natural body of Christ, which is only spiritual, unintelligible, and insensible, having no distinction of members and parts in it: but that body only I acknowledge and worship, which was born of the Virgin, which suffered for us, which is visible, palpable, and hath all the form, and shape, and parts of the true natural body of man. Christ spite not these words of any uncertain substance, but of the certain substance of bread, which he then held in his hands, and showed his disciples, when he said, Eat ye; this is my body: and likewise of the cup, when he said, Drink ye; this is my blood: meaning verily of that bread, which by nature is usual and common with us, which is taken out of the fruit of the ground, compacted by the uniting of many grains together made by man, and by man's hand brought to that visible shape, being of round compass, and without all sense or life; which nourisheth the body, and strengtheneth the heart of man: of this same bread, (I say,) and not of any uncertain and wandering substance, the old fathers say that Christ spake these words, Eat ye; this is my body. And likewise also of the wine, which is the creature and fruit of the vine pressed out of many clusters of grapes, and maketh man's heart merry, of the very same wine (I say) Christ spake, Drink ye; this is my blood. And so the old doctors do call this speaking of Christ tropical, figurative, analogical, allegorical; which they do interpret after this sort, that although the substance of bread and wine do remain, and be received of the faithful, yet, notwithstanding, Christ changed the appellation thereof, and called the bread by the name of his flesh, and the wine by the name of his blood; 'Not that it is so in very deed, but signified in a mystery.' So that we should consider, not what they be in their own nature, but what they import to us and signify; and should understand the sacrament not carnally, but spiritually; and should attend not to the visible nature of the sacraments, neither have respect only to the outward bread and cup, thinking to see there with our eyes no other things but only bread and wine: but that, lifting up our minds, we should look up to the blood of Christ with our faith; should touch him with our mind, and receive him with our inward man; and that, being like eagles in this life, we should fly up into heaven in our hearts, where that Lamb is resident at the right hand of his Father, which taketh away the sins of the world; by whose stripes we are made whole; by whose passion we are filled at his table, and whose blood we receiving out of his holy side, do live for ever, being made the guests of Christ; having him dwelling in us through the grace of his true nature, and, through the virtue and efficacy of his whole passion, being no less assured and certified, that we are fed spiritually unto eternal life by Christ's flesh crucified, and by his blood shed, the true food of our minds, than that our bodies be fed with meat and drink in this life: and hereof this said mystical bread on the table of Christ, and the mystical wine, being administered and received after the institution of Christ, be to us a memorial, a pledge, a token, a sacrament, and a seal. And thereof it is that Christ saith not thus: This is my body; eat ye: but, after he had bidden them eat, then he said, This is my body, which shall be given for you: which is to mean, as though he should say, In eating of this bread, consider you that this bread is no common thing, but a mystical matter; neither do you attend that which is set before your bodily eyes, but what feedeth you within. Consider and behold my body crucified for you; that eat and digest in your minds; chew you upon my passion; be fed with my death. This is the true meat; this is the drink that moisteneth, wherewith you -- being truly fed and inebriate -- shall live for ever. The bread and wine which be set before your eyes are only declarations of me, but I myself am the eternal food. Wherefore, whensoever at this my table you shall behold the sacraments, have not regard so much to them, as consider ye what I promise you by them; which is -- myself to be meat for you of eternal life.
"The only oblation of Christ (wherewith he offered himself to God the Father once to death upon the altar of the cross for our redemption) was of such efficacy, that there is no more need of any sacrifice for the redemption of the whole world; but all the sacrifices of the old law he took away, performing that in very deed, which they did signify and promise. Whosoever therefore shall fix the hope of his salvation in any other sacrifice, he falleth from the grace of Christ, and is contumelious against the blood of Christ. For he was wounded for our transgressions, and was broken for our iniquities. All we like sheep have wandered astray. Every man hath turned after his own way, and the Lord hath laid all our iniquities upon him. For he hath entered once for all into the holy place by the blood, not of goats or calves, but by his own blood, finding eternal redemption: And hath entered into heaven, to appear now in the sight of God for us: not to offer himself oftentimes (for so should he have suffered many times); but now hath he appeared once to put away sin, through his own oblation. And as it is appointed to all men once to die, so also Christ once was offered: Who, offering up one oblation for sins, sitteth now for ever on the right hand of God: for by one oblation hath he made perfect for ever those that be sanctified. For where is remission of sins, there is now no oblation for sin, but this only sacrifice of Christ. Whosoever shall seek any other sacrifice propitiatory for sin, maketh the sacrifice of Christ of no validity, force, or efficacy: for if it be sufficient to remit sins, what need is there of any other? for the necessity of another argueth and declareth this to be insufficient. Almighty God grant, that we may truly lean to one sacrifice of Christ, and that we to him again may repay our sacrifices of thanksgiving, of praise, of confessing his name, of true amendment, of repentance, of mercifulness towards our neighbours, and of all other good works of charity: for by such sacrifices we shall declare ourselves neither ungrateful to God, nor altogether unworthy of this holy sacrifice of Christ.
"And thus you have out of the testimonies of Holy Scripture, and of the ancient doctors of the church, the true and sincere use of the Lord's holy supper, and the fruit of the true sacrifice of Christ; which whosoever, through captious or wrested interpretations, or by men's traditions, shall go about, otherwise than Christ ordained them, to alter or transubstantiate, he shall answer to Christ in the latter day, when he shall understand, (but then too late,) that he hath no participation with the body and blood of Christ, but that out of the supper of eternal life, he hath eaten and drunken eternal damnation to himself."
Weston.--"Because we will not consume and spend the time in waste, this your writing which you exhibit, hereafter shall be read in this place. In the mean season let us now fall to the arguments."
Chedsey.--"The Scriptures in many places do affirm, that Christ gave his natural body: Matt. xxvi.; Mark sic.; Luke xxii. Ergo, I do conclude that the natural body is in the sacrament."
Cranmer.--"To your argument I answer, If you understand by the body natural organicum, that is, having such proportion and members as he had living here, then I answer negatively. Furthermore, concerning the evangelists thus I say and grant, that Christ took bread, and called it his body."
Chedsey.--"The text of the Scripture maketh against you, for the circumstance thereto annexed doth teach us, not only there to be the body, but also teacheth us what manner of body it is, and saith, The same body which shall be given.
"That thing is here contained, that is given for us.
"But the substance of bread is not given for us. "Ergo, The substance of bread is here not contained."
Cranmer.--"I understand not yet what you mean by this word 'contained.' If ye mean 'really,' then I deny your major."
Chedsey.--"The major is the text of Scripture. He that denieth the major, denieth the Scripture: for the Scripture saith, This is my body which is given for you."
Cranmer.--"I grant he said it was his body which should be given, but he said it was not his body which is here contained; but the body, saith he, that shall be given for you. As though he should say, This bread is the breaking of my body; and this cup is the shedding of my blood. What will ye say then? Is the bread the breaking of his body, and the cup the shedding of his blood really? If you say so, I deny it."
Chedsey.--"If you ask what is the thing therein contained; because his apostles should not doubt what body it was that should be given, he saith, This is my body which shall be given for you, and my blood which shall be shed for many. Ergo, here is the same substance of the body, which the day after was given, and the same blood which was shed. And here I urge the Scripture, which teacheth that it was no fantastical, no feigned, no spiritual body, nor body in faith; but the substance of the body."
Cranmer.--"You must prove that it is contained: but Christ said not, 'which is contained.' He gave bread, and called that his body. I stick not in the words of the Scripture, but in your word, which is feigned and imagined of yourself."
Chedsey.--" When Christ took bread and brake it, what gave he?"
Cranmer.--"He gave bread. The bread sacramentally, and his body spiritually, and the bread there he called his body."
Chedsey.--" This answer is against the Scrip-tore, which saith, that he gave his body."
Cranmer.--"It did signify that which they did eat."
Chedsey.--"They did not eat the body as the Capernaites did understand it, but the selfsame body which was given for the sins of the world. Ergo, it was his body which should be given, and his blood which should be shed."
[In some other copies I find this argument to be made by Chedsey.
"The same body is in the sacrament, which was given for us on the cross.
"But bread was not given on the cross for us:
"Ergo, Bread is not given in the sacrament."
Cranmer.--"I deny the major, which is, that the same natural body is given in the sacrament, which was given on the cross, except you understand it spiritually."-- And after, he denied also the argument as utterly nought, as he might well do, the major in the second figure being not universal.]
When Master Chedsey had put forth his argument, and prosecuted the same, and Dr. Cranmer answered as before is showed, Dr. Oglethorpe, one of those doctors which the prolocutor called censores, (belike to be arbiters to order the disputations,) said on this wise:
Oglethorpe.--"You come in still with one evasion or starting hole to flee to. He urgeth the Scriptures, saying, that Christ gave his very body. You say, that he gave his body in bread. Quomodo prĉdicatur corpus? qualis est corpus? qualis est prĉdicatio? panis est corpus."
Cranmer.--"You should say, Quale corpus. I answer to the question: It is the same body which was born of the Virgin, was crucified, ascended; but tropically, and by a figure. And so I say, Panis en corpus is a figurative speech, speaking sacramentally; for it is a sacrament of his body."
Oglethorpe.--"This word 'body,' being prĉdicatum, doth signify substance.
"But substantia is not predicated denominatively.
"Ergo, It is an essential predication; and so it is his true body, and not the figure of his body."
Cranmer.--"Substantia may be predicated denominatively in an allegory, or in a metaphor, or in a figurative locution."
Oglethorpe.--"It is not a likely thing, that Christ hath less care for his spouse the church, than a wise householder hath for his family, in making his will or testament."
Cranmer.--"Your reason is drawn out of the affairs of men, and not taken out of the Holy Scriptures."
Oglethorpe.--"But no householder maketh his testament after that sort."
Cranmer.--"Yes, there are many that so do. For what matter is it, so it be understood and perceived? I say, Christ did use figurative speech in no place more than in his sacraments; and specially in this of his supper."
Oglethorpe.--"No man of purpose doth use tropes in his testament; for if he do, he deceiveth them that he cornprehendeth in his testament: therefore Christ useth none here."
Cranmer.--"Yes, he may use them well enough. You know not what tropes are."
Oglethorpe.--"The good man of the house hath respect that his heirs, after his departure, may live in quiet and without brabbling."
"But they cannot be in quiet, if he do use tropes: "Therefore, I say, he useth no tropes."
Cranmer.--"I deny your minor."
Weston.--"Augustine, in his book entituled De unitate Ecclesiĉ, chap. x., hath these words following:
"What a thing is this, I pray you? When the last words of one lying upon his death-bed are heard, who is ready to go to his grave, no man saith, that he hath made a lie; and he is not accounted his heir, who regardeth not those words. How shall we then escape God's wrath, if either not believing, or not regarding, we shall reject the last words both of the only Son of God, and also of our Lord and Saviour,-- both ascending into heaven, and beholding from thence, who despiseth, who observeth them not; and so shall come from thence to judge all men?'
"The argument is thus formed:
"Whosoever saith that the testator lieth, is a wicked heir.
"But whosoever saith that Christ spake by figures, saith that he did lie:
"Ergo, Whosoever saith that Christ here spake by figures, is a wicked heir."
Cranmer.--"I deny the minor: as who say, it is necessary that he that useth to speak by tropes and figures, should lie in so doing."
Oglethorpe.--"Your judgment is disagreeing with all churches."
Cranmer.--"Nay, I disagree with the papistical church."
Oglethorpe.--"This you do, through the ignorance of logic."
Cranmer.--"Nay, this you say, through the ignorance of the doctors."
Weston.--"I will go plainly to work by Scriptures. What took he?"
Weston.--"What gave he?"
Weston.--"What brake he?"
Weston.--"What did he eat?"
Weston.--"He gave bread: therefore he gave not his body.
"He gave not his body, therefore it is not his body verily, and in deed and in truth."
Cranmer.--"I deny the argument."
Cole.--"This argument holdeth, a disparatis: It is bread: ergo, it is not the body; and it is such an argument or reason as cannot be dissolved."
Cranmer.--"The like argument may be made. He is a rock: ergo, he is not Christ."
Cole.--"It is not alike."
Weston.--"He gave not his body indeed: ergo, it was not his body indeed."
Cranmer.--"He gave his death, his passion, and the sacrament of his passion. And, in very deed, setting the figure aside, formally it is not his body."
Weston.--"Why? then the Scripture is false."
Cranmer.--"Nay, the Scripture is most true."
Weston.--"This saith Chrysostom: Needful it is, dear friends, to tell you what the miracle of the mysteries is, and wherefore it is given, and what profit there is of the thing. We are one body, and members of his flesh and of his bones. We that be in the mystery, let us follow the thing which was spoken. Wherefore, that we may become this thing, not only by love, but also that we may become one with that flesh indeed, that is brought to pass by this food which he gave unto us, minding to show his great good will that he hath towards us; and therefore he mixed himself with us, and united his own body with us, that we should he made all as one thing together, as a body joined and annexed to the head; for this is a token of most ardent and perfect love. And the same thing Job also, insinuating, said of his servants, of whom he was desired above measure insomuch that they, showing their great desire toward him, said, Who shall give unto us to be filled with his flesh? Therefore also Christ did the same, who, to induce us into a greater love toward him, and to declare his desire towards us, did not only give himself to be seen of them that would, but also to be handled and eaten, and suffered us to fasten our teeth in his flesh, and to be united together, and so to fill all our desire. Like lions therefore, as breathing fire, let us go from that table, being made terrible to the devil, remembering our Head in our mind, and his charity which he showed unto us. For parents many times give their children to others to be fed, but I do not so, (saith he,) but feed you with mine own flesh, and set myself before you; desiring to make you all jolly people, and pretending to you great hope and expectation to look for things to come, who here give myself to you, but much more in the world to come. I am become your brother; I took flesh and blood for you. Again, my flesh and blood, by the which I am made your kinsman, I deliver unto you.' Thus much out of Chrysostom. Out of which words I make this argument:
"The same flesh whereby Christ is made our brother and kinsman, is given of Christ to us to be eaten.
"Christ is made our brother and kinsman, by his true, natural, and organical flesh:
"Ergo, His true, natural, and organical flesh, is given to us to be eaten."
Cranmer.--"I grant the consequence and the consequent."
Weston.--"Therefore we eat it with our mouth."
Cranmer.--"I deny it. We eat it through faith."
Weston.--"He gave us that same flesh to eat whereby he became our brother and kinsman.
"But he became our brother and kinsman by his true, natural, and organical flesh:
"Therefore he gave his true, natural, and organical flesh to be eaten."
Cranmer.--"I grant he took and gave the same true, natural, and organical flesh wherein he suffered; and yet he feedeth us spiritually, and that flesh is received spiritually."
Weston.--"He gave us the same flesh which he took of the Virgin.
"But he took not his true flesh of the Virgin spiritually, or in a figure.
"Ergo, He gave his true natural flesh, not spiritually."
Cranmer.--"Christ gave to us his own natural flesh, the same wherein he suffered, but feedeth us spiritually."
Weston.--"Chrysostom is against you, where he saith, 'Let it cone into thy remembrance with what honour thou art honoured, and what table thou sittest at: for with the same thing we are nourished, which the angels do behold and tremble at; neither are they able to behold it without great fear, for the brightness which cometh thereof: and we be brought and compact into one heap or mass with him, being together one body of Christ, and one flesh with him. Who shall speak the powers of the Lord, and shall declare forth all his praises? What pastor hath ever nourished his sheep with his own members? Many mothers have put forth their infants after their birth to other nurses; which he would not do, but feedeth us with his own body, and conjoineth and uniteth us to himself.' Whereupon I gather this argument:
"Like as mothers nurse their children with milk, so Christ nourisheth us with his body.
"But mothers do not nourish their infants spiritually with their milk:
"Therefore Christ doth not nourish those that be his spiritually, with his blood."
Cranmer.--"He gave us the wine for his blood."
Weston.--"If he gave the wine for his blood, (as you say,) then he gave less than mothers do give.
"But Chrysostom affirmeth, that he gave more than mothers give:
"Therefore he gave not the wine for his blood."
Cranmer.--"You pervert mine answer. He gave wine, yet the blood is considered therein. As for example: when he giveth baptism, we consider not the water, but the Holy Ghost, and remission of sins. We receive with the mouth the sacrament; but the thing and the matter of the sacrament we receive by faith."
Weston.--"When Christ said, Eat ye, whether meant he by the mouth or by faith?"
Cranmer.--"He meant, that we should receive the body by faith, the bread by the mouth."
"Weston.--"Nay, the body by the mouth.
Cranmer.--"That I deny."
Weston.--"I prove it out of Chrysostom, writing upon the fiftieth Psalm 'She that is a mother, shameth sometime to play the nurse. But Christ, our nurse, doth not so play with us. Therefore, instead of meat, he feedeth us with his own flesh; and instead of drink, he feedeth us with his own blood.' Likewise, upon the 83d Homily, on Matt. xxvi., he saith: 'For it shall not be enough for him to become man, and in the mean while to be whipped; but he doth bring us into one mass or lump with himself (as I may so call it); and maketh us his body, not by faith alone, but also in very deed.'"
Cranmer.--"I grant, we make one nature with Christ. But that to be done with the mouth, I deny."
Weston.--"Chrysostom (2 Cur. xiii. Homil. 29) hath these words: 'No little honour is given to our mouth, receiving the body of the Lord.'"
Cranmer.--"This I say, that Christ entereth into us both by our ears and by our eyes. With our mouth we receive the body of Christ, and tear it with our teeth, that is to say, the sacrament of the body of Christ. Wherefore I say and affirm, that the virtue of the sacrament is much: and therefore Chrysostom many times speaketh of sacraments no otherwise than of Christ himself; as I could prove, if I might have liberty to speak, by many places of Chrysostom, where he speaketh of the sacrament of the body of Christ."
With which word of the "sacrament of the body," &c., Dr. Cole being highly offended, denied it to be the sacrament of the body of Christ, save only of the mystical body, which is the church.
Cranmer.--"And why should we doubt to call it the sacrament of the body of Christ, offered upon the cross, seeing both Christ and the ancient fathers do so call it?"
Cole.--"How gather you that of Chrysostom?"
Cranmer.--"Chrysostom declareth himself thus: O miracle, O the good-will of God towards us, which sitteth above, at the right hand of the Father, and is holden in men's hands at the sacrifice's time, and is given to feed upon, to them that are desirous of him! And that is brought to pass by no subtlety or craft, but with the open and beholding eyes of all the standers-by.' Thus you hear, Christ is seen here in earth every day; is touched, is torn with the teeth, that our tongue is red with his blood; which no man having any judgment will say or think to be spoken without trope or figure."
Weston.--"What miracle is it, if it be not his body, and if he spake only of the sacrament, as though it were his body? But hearken what Chrysostom saith: I show forth that thing on the earth unto thee, which is worthy the greatest honour. For like as in the palace of kings, neither the walls, nor the sumptuous bed, but the body of kings sitting under the cloth of estate, and royal seat of majesty, is of all things else the most excellent: so is, in like manner, the King's body in heaven, which is now set before us on earth. I show thee neither angels nor archangels, nor the heaven of heavens, but the very Lord and Master of all these things. Thou perceivest after what sort thou dost not only behold, but toughest; and not only touchest, but eatest, that which on the earth is the greatest and chiefest thing of all other; and when thou hast received the same, thou goest home: wherefore cleanse thy soul from all uncleanness.'
"Upon this, I conclude that the body of Christ is showed us upon the earth."
Cranmer.--"What! upon the earth? No man seeth Christ upon the earth: he is seen with the eyes of our mind, with faith and spirit."
Weston.--"I pray you, what is it that seemeth worthy highest honour on the earth? Is it the sacrament, or else the body of Christ?"
Cranmer.--"Chrysostom speaketh of the sacrament; and the body of Christ is showed forth in the sacrament."
Weston.--"Ergo, then the sacrament is worthy greatest honour."
Cranmer.--"I deny the argument."
Weston.--"That thing is showed forth, and is now on the earth, which is worthy highest honour."
"But only the body of Christ is worthy highest honour:
"Ergo, The body of Christ is now on the earth."
Cranmer.--"I answer, the body of Christ to be on the earth, but so as in the sacrament, and as the Holy Ghost is in the water of baptism."
Weston.--"Chrysostom saith, 'I show forth,' which noteth a substance to be present."
Cranmer.--"That is to be understood sacramentally."
Weston.--"He saith, 'I show forth on earth;' declaring also the place where."
Cranmer.--"That is to be understood figuratively."
Weston.--"He is showed forth, and is now on the earth, &c., as before."
Cranmer.--"Your major and conclusion are all one."
Weston.--"But the major is true: ergo, the conclusion also is true.
"That thing is on the earth, which is worthy of most high honour.
"But no figure is worthy of highest honour.
"Ergo, That which is on the earth, is no figure."
"Cranmer.--"I answer, that is true sacramentally.
Here Weston crieth to him, that he should answer to one part, bidding him repeat his words. Which when Cranmer went about to do, such was the noise and crying out in the school, that his mild voice could not be heard. For when he went about to declare to the people how the prolocutor did not well English the words of Chrysostom, using for ostenditur in terra, "he is showed forth on the earth," est in terra, "he is on the earth," whereas Chrysostom hath not est nor any such word of being on the earth, but only of showing, as the grace of the Holy Ghost in baptismo ostenditur, i. e. is showed forth in baptism: and oftentimes he did inculcate this word ostenditur.
Then the prolocutor, stretching forth his hand, set on the rude people to cry out at him, filling all the school with hissing, clapping of hands, and noise; calling him unlearned, unskilful, impudent: which impudent and reproachful words this reverend man most patiently and meekly did abide, as one that had been inured with the suffering of such-like reproaches. And when the prolocutor, not yet satisfied with this rude and unseemly demeanour, did urge and call upon him to answer the argument; then he bade the notary repeat his words again.
Notary.--"That which is worthy most high honour, here I show forth to thee on earth.
"The body of Christ is worthy highest honour:
"Ergo, He showeth forth the body of Christ here on earth."
Cranmer.--"That is showed forth here on the earth, which may be seen, which may be touched, and which may be eaten: but these things be not true of the body."
Cole.--"Why should not these things be true of the body of Christ?"
Cranmer.--"The major out of Chrysostom is true; meaning of the sacraments. For in the sacrament the true body of Christ, and not the figurative body, is set forth."
Weston.--"Show me somewhat in earth worthy greatest honour."
Cranmer.--"I cannot, but in the sacrament only."
Weston.--"Ergo, The sacrament is worthy greatest honour."
Cranmer.--"So it is."
Judges.--"Let it be written."
Cranmer.--"I pray you let my answer be written likewise: I affirm, that the body of Christ is showed forth unto us. It is our faith that seeth Christ."
Weston.--"'I show it to thee,' saith Chrysostom--not to thy faith."
Cranmer.--"He speaketh sacramentally.
Weston.--"Ergo, Chrysostom lieth. For he, speaking of showing, saith, 'I Chrysostom do show.' But he can show nothing sacramentally."
Chedsey.--"By force of argument we are brought to this point, that the body of Christ is proved to be on earth, not only sacramentally, but in very deed also, by this reason, that it is worthy highest honour.--The reason is indissoluble."
Cranmer.--"I never heard a more vain argument, and it is most vain; also it hath mine answer unto it."
Chedsey.--"Will you affirm, that it is absurd which Chrysostom saith, That the body of Christ is touched?
"I touch the body of Christ in the sacrament, as Thomas touched Christ.
"Thomas touched Christ, and said, My Lord, my God.
"Ergo, That which he touched was the Lord, the God."
[This argument, as I received it out of the notary's book, is not formal; but rather he should conclude in the third figure thus:
As Thomas touched the body of Christ, so we touch it in the sacrament.]
Thomas touched the body of Christ corporally: Ergo, We touch the body of Christ corporally in the sacrament.]
Cranmer.--"I deny your argument. He touched not God, but him which was God; neither is it sound doctrine to affirm that God is touched."
Chedsey.--"This is because of the union; so that God is said to be touched, when Christ, which is both God and man, is touched.
"Tertullian saith, 'Let us consider as concerning the proper form of the Christian man, what great prerogative this vain and foul substance of ours hath with God. Although it were sufficient to it, that no soul could ever get salvation unless it believe while it is in the flesh: so much the flesh availeth to salvation; by the which flesh it cometh, that whereas the soul so is linked unto God, it is the said flesh that causeth the soul to be linked: yet the flesh moreover is washed, that the soul may be cleansed; the flesh is anointed, that the soul may be consecrated; the flesh is signed, that the soul may be defended; the flesh is shadowed by the imposition of hands, that the soul may be illuminated with the Spirit; the flesh doth eat the body and blood of Christ, that the soul may be fed of God. Whereupon I gather this argument:
"The flesh eateth the body of Christ.
"Ergo, The body of Christ is eaten with the mouth.
"Item, Photius upon these words (1 Cor. xi.) will be guilty of the body and blood, &c.: 'Whereas he saith, Is guilty of the body and blood; this he declareth, that like as Judas betrayed him, and the Jews were fierce and spiteful against him; so do they dishonour him, who receive his holy body with their impure hands, and, as the Jews did hold him then, do now receive him with impure mouths. And whereas he often maketh mention of the body and blood of the Lord, he declareth, that it is not simply man that is sacrificed, but even the Lord himself, being the Maker of all things, hereby (as it were) making them afraid.'
"Ergo, (as it is hereby gathered,) the body of Christ is touched with the hands."
Cranmer. --"You vouch two authors against me upon sundry things. First I must answer Tertullian, and then the other."
Chedsey.--"They tend both to one meaning."
Cranmer.--"Unto Tertullian I answer, (because our disputation is wandering and uncertain,) that he calleth that the flesh, which is the sacrament. For although God work all things in us invisibly, beyond man's reach, yet they are so manifest, that they may be seen, and perceived of every sense. Therefore he setteth forth baptism, unction, and, last of all, the supper of the Lord unto us, which he gave to signify his operation in us. The flesh liveth by the bread, but the soul is inwardly fed by Christ."
Weston.--"Stick to those words of Tertullian, The body eateth, that the soul may be fed.'"
Chedsey.--"The flesh eateth the body of Christ, that the soul may be fed therewith."
Weston.--"Here you see two kinds of food, of the soul and of the body."
Chedsey.--"He saith, that not only the soul, but the flesh is also fed."
Cranmer.--"The soul is fed with the body of Christ, the body with the sacrament."
Chedsey.--"Is the soul fed with the body of Christ, and not with the sacrament."
Cranmer.--"Read that which followeth, and you shall perceive, that by things external, an operation internal is understood. Inwardly we eat Christ's body, and outwardly we eat the sacrament. So one thing is done outwardly, and another inwardly. Like as in baptism the external element, whereby the body is washed, is one; the internal thing, whereby the soul is cleansed, is another."
Chedsey.--"The soul is fed by that which the body eateth.
"But the soul is fed by the flesh of Christ:
"Ergo, The body eateth the flesh of Christ."
Cranmer.--"We eat not one thing outwardly and inwardly. Inwardly we eat Christ's body: outwardly we eat the sacrament."
Chedsey --"I will repeat the argument.
"The flesh eateth Christ's body, that the soul may be fed therewith.
"The soul is not fed with the sacrament, but with Christ's body.
"Ergo, The flesh eateth the body of Christ."
Cranmer.--"The sacrament is one thing, the matter of the sacrament is another. Outwardly we receive the sacrament; inwardly we eat the body of Christ."
Chedsey.--"I prove, that we receive that outwardly, wherewith the soul is fed.
"The soul is fed with the body of Christ:
"Ergo, We eat the body of Christ outwardly.
"The flesh eateth Christ his body:
"Ergo, The soul is fed therewith."
Cranmer.--"The flesh, I say, eateth the sacrament; it eateth not Christ's body. For Tertullian speaketh of the sacrament; and the place hath not 'thereof,' but 'of God.'"
Chedsey.--"What say you to Photius's saying? 'They which receive the body with impure hands, are guilty of the Lord's blood, as Judas was.'"
Weston.--"That which followeth in Tertullian doth take away your shift, where he saith, 'They cannot be separated in reward, whom one work joineth together.'
"But manducation is the work, or labour: ergo, &c.
"The form of this argument may be thus collected:
"One work or labour joineth body and soul together.
"Manducation is a work, or labour.
"Ergo, One manducation joineth together both body and soul.
"To the major of which argument, thus it may be answered, expounding the saying of Tertullian, Una opera conjungit, sed non idem operandi modus. Again, opera here, in Tertullian, may be taken for temptations and afflictions."
Cranmer.--"Your authority, I suppose, is taken out of the book, Of the Resurrection of the Flesh; and the meaning thereof is this: Tertullian goeth about there to prove, that the flesh shall rise again, because it is joined together in one work with the soul. Through baptism in this world the body is washed, and the soul is washed: the body outwardly, the soul inwardly; the work is one. In this work they are joined, and he speaketh of signs."
Weston.--"He speaketh of eating in a sign: ergo, the reward is in a sign."
Cranmer.--"They are coupled in one work, namely, in the sacrament."
Weston.--"There are two works: ergo, there are two rewards.
"If the work be in a figure: ergo, the reward is in a figure."
Cranmer.--"He speaketh not of two works. Two works are but one work. And yet he saith not, 'whom one work joineth together;' but 'a work:' as in baptism the soul and body are joined in understanding."
Weston.--"The flesh and soul shall have one and the selfsame reward, because they have one work."
Cranmer.--"Because they be joined together in one work."
Tresham.--"Forasmuch as the reverend doctors here have impugned and overthrown your assertion and your answers sufficiently, I will fall to another matter, not altogether impertinent to the purpose, and that in few words, against a certain sequel of your opinion. The sequel is this: that between us and Christ there is no further conjunction, while we receive the eucharist, than a conjunction of the mind, or a spiritual conjunction, whereby we are united and knit unto Christ through faith and love. As for the presence of Christ concerning the substance, that you utterly deny. Whereupon, in very deed, you leave but a spiritual union and joining together of mind: howbeit you would seem to think otherwise, by your subtle answers. But I will declare, by manifest testimonies of the fathers, that this your sequel, which you account so sure, is far wide from the truth. And I will begin with St. Hilary, who is both an ancient and learned author. For, disputing against the Arians, in his eighth book of the Trinity, he saith, that this was their opinion; that the Father and the Son are conjoined only through unity of will. Whereupon Arius himself, when Scripture was alleged against him, did (as you do now) elude the right meaning of it by his false interpretations. But the catholic church hath always believed and ever maintained, That Christ is one with the Father in nature, and not by consent of will only.' To the proof whereof, when the catholics vouched this testimony of John, The Father and I are one; the Arians answered, that unum sumus was to be understood by the assent of their wills, and agreement of their minds; not by unity of their natures. Thus it happeneth now-a-days, where men do doubt of the sacrament. But Hilary, going on, and proving the natural conjunction between the Father and the Son a fortiori, questioneth with his adversaries after this manner: 'I demand of them now, which will needs have the unity of will only between the Father and the Son, whether Christ be now in us truly by nature, or only by the agreement of wills. If,' saith he, 'the Word be incarnate in very deed, and we receive at the Lord's table the Word made flesh, how then is he to be thought not to dwell in us naturally, who, being born man, hath both taken the nature of our flesh upon him, that is now inseparable, and hath also mingled that nature of his own flesh unto the nature of eternity, under the sacrament of his flesh, to be communicated unto us?' Thus much hath Hilary. Whereupon I ask of you this question, How Christ dwelleth now in us?--according to faith, or according to nature?"
Cranmer.--"I say that Christ dwelleth verily in us carnally and naturally; for that he hath taken of the Virgin our flesh upon him, and because he hath communicated his nature unto us."
Tresham.--"Bucer referreth these words only to the eucharist, saying, 'Christ doth exhibit all this unto us in his holy supper; and, according to the holy fathers,' saith Bucer, 'Christ liveth thereby in us, not only by faith and love, as absent, but naturally, corporally, and carnally.' Wherefore he is not absent, neither are we joined to Christ only by a spiritual union, (as you suppose,) but also by a corporal and carnal union."
Cranmer.--"I know that Master Bucer was a learned man. But your faith is in good case, which leaneth upon Bucer."
Tresham.--"I do not bring Bucer as a patron of our faith; but because he is a man of your sort, and yet bringeth this place of Hilary for that union which we have by the sacrament, and confesseth, that by it we are carnally united to Christ: whereas you think, we are joined by it only through faith and love."
Cranmer.--"I say that Christ was communicated unto us, not only by faith, but in very deed, also, when he was born of the Virgin. We have fellowship with Christ, when we are united in the unity of the church; when we are made flesh of his flesh, and bones of his bones: and so we are united in the communion, in baptism, and in faith."
Tresham.--"I pray you, what fellowship have we with Christ, in that he is made man? Are not the Turks and Jews therein joined with him? For they are men as we are, and are joined with him in man's nature, in that he was born of a woman. I speak now of a more near unity. We are made one with Christ by the communion, in a perfect unity."
Crammer.--"We are made so, I grant: but we are made so also by baptism; and the unity in baptism is perfect."
Tresham.--"We are not made one by baptism in a perfect unity, as Hilary there speaketh, but by the communion, by which we are carnally made one; but not likewise by baptism: wherefore you understand not Hilary. You shall hear his words, which are these: 'He had now declared afore the sacrament of his perfect union, saying; As the living Father sent me, so do I also live by the Father. And he that eateth my flesh, shall also live through me.' And a little after that he writeth thus: 'This truly is the cause of our life; that we have Christ dwelling by his flesh in us that are fleshly, which also by him shall live in such sort as he liveth by his Father.' Wherefore of thesewords it is manifest, that we obtain this perfect unity by means of the sacrament, and that Christ by it is carnally united unto us."
Cranmer.--"Nay, Hilary in that same place doth teach, that it is done by baptism: and that doctrine is not to be suffered in the church, which teacheth, that we are not joined to Christ by baptism."
Weston.--"Repeat the argument."
Cramner.--"You must first make an argument."
Tresham.--"It is made already, but it shall be made again in this form:
"As Christ liveth by his Father, so they that eat Christ's flesh, live by the same flesh.
"But Christ liveth by the Father, not only by faith and love, but naturally.
"Ergo, We live not through the eating of Christ's flesh, by faith and love only, but naturally."
Cranmer.--"We live by Christ, not only by faith and love, but eternally indeed,"
Tresham.--"Nay, naturally; I prove it thus: "As Christ liveth by the Father, so live we by his flesh eaten of us.
"But Christ liveth not by his Father only by faith and love, but naturally.
"Therefore we do not live by eating of Christ's flesh only by faith and love, (as you suppose,) but naturally."
Cranmer.--"The minor is not true."
Tresham.--"This is the opinion of Arius -- that Christ is united to his Father by conjunction of mind, and not naturally."
Cranmer.--"I say not so yet, neither do I think so: but I will tell you what I like not in your minor. You say, 'that Christ doth not live by his Father only by faith and love:' but I say, that Christ liveth not at all by his faith."
Weston.--"Mark and consider well this word, 'by faith,' lest any occasion of cavilling be given."
Tresham.--"Let that word, 'by faith,' be omitted. Neither did I mean, that Christ liveth by his Father through faith. Yet the strength of the argument remaineth in force; for else Hilary doth not confute the Arians, except there he a greater conjunction between us and Christ, when he is eaten of us, than only a spiritual conjunction. You do only grant a union. As for a carnal or natural union of the substance of flesh, by which we are joined more than spiritually, you do not grant. But our Lord Jesus give you a better mind, and show you the light of his truth, that you may return into the way of righteousness."
Weston.--"We came hither to dispute, and not to pray."
Tresham.--"Is it not lawful to pray for them that err?"
Weston.--"It is not lawful yet -- But proceed."
Tresham.--"Again, I reason thus: As Christ liveth by his Father, after the same manner do we live by the eating of his flesh.
"But Christ liveth not by his Father, only in unity of will, but naturally:
"Ergo, We do not live when we eat the flesh of Christ, only by faith and unity of will, but naturally."
Cranmer.--"This is my faith, and it agreeth with the Scripture; Christ liveth by his Father naturally, and maketh us to live by himself indeed naturally, and that not only in the sacrament of the eucharist, but also in baptism. For infants, when they are baptized, do eat the flesh of Christ."
Weston.--"Answer either to the whole argument, or to the parts thereof. For this argument is strong, and cannot be dissolved."
Cranmer.--"This is the argument:
"As Christ liveth by his Father, after the same manner do we live by his flesh, being eaten of us.
"But Christ liveth by his Father not only in unity of will, but naturally.
"Ergo, We, eating his flesh, do not live only by faith and love, but naturally.
"But the major is false; namely, that by the same manner we live by Christ, as he liveth by his Father."
Weston.--"Hilary saith, 'after the same manner,' upon these words, He that eateth my flesh shall live by me. Ergo, Christ liveth by his Father, and as he liveth by his Father, after the same manner we shall live by his flesh. Here you see, that Hilary saith, 'after the same manner.'"
Cranmer.--"'After the same manner,' doth not signify alike in all things, but indeed and eternally: for so do we live by Christ, and Christ liveth by his Father. For in other respects Christ liveth otherwise by his Father than we live by Christ."
Weston.--"He liveth by his Father naturally and eternally.
"Ergo, We live by Christ naturally and eternally."
Cranmer.--"We do not live naturally, but by grace, if you take naturally for the manner of nature; as Christ hath eternal life of his Father, so have we of him."
Weston.-- "I stick to this word 'naturally.'"
Cranmer.--"I mean it, touching the truth of nature. For Christ liveth otherwise by his Father than we live by Christ."
Weston.--"Hilary, in his eighth book de Trinitate, denieth it, when he saith, He liveth therefore by his Father; and as he liveth by his Father, after the same manner we shall live by his flesh.'"
Cranmer.--"We shall live after the same manner, as concerning the nature of the flesh of Christ: for as he hath of his Father the nature of eternity, so shall we have of him."
Weston.--"Answer unto the parts of the argument."
"As Christ liveth by his Father, after the same manner shall we live by his flesh.
"But Christ doth not live by his Father only in unity of will, but naturally.
"Ergo, We, eating of his flesh, do not live only by faith and love, but naturally."
Cranmer.--"I grant, as I said, we live by Christ naturally: but I never heard that Christ liveth with his Father in unity of will only."
Weston.--"Because it seemeth a marvel unto you, hear what Hilary saith: 'These things are recited of us to this end, because the heretics, feigning a unity of will only between the Father and the Son, did use the example of our unity with God; as though we, being united to the Son, and by the Son to the Father, only by obedience and will of religion, had no propriety of the natural communion by the sacrament of the body and blood.'
"But answer to the argument,-- Christ liveth by his Father naturally and eternally: therefore do we live by Christ naturally and eternally."
Cranmer.--"Cyril and Hilary do say, that Christ is united to us not only by will, but also by nature: he doth communicate to us his own nature, and so is Christ made one with us carnally and corporally, because he took our nature of the Virgin Mary. And Hilary doth not say only that Christ is naturally in us, but that we also are naturally in him, and in the Father; that is, that we are partakers of their nature, which is eternity, or everlastingness. For as the Word, receiving our nature, did join it unto himself in unity of person, and did communicate unto that our nature, the nature of his eternity, that like as he, being the everlasting Word of the Father, had everlasting life of the Father; even so he gave the same nature to his flesh. Likewise also did he communicate with us the same nature of eternity, which he and the Father have, and that we should be one with them, not only in will and love, but that we should be also partakers of the nature of everlasting life."
Weston.--"Hilary, where he saith, 'Christ communicated to us his nature,' meaneth that not by his nativity, but by the sacrament."
Cranmer.--"He hath communicated to us his flesh by his nativity."
Weston.--"We have communicated to him our flesh when he was born."
Cranmer.--"Nay, he communicated to us his flesh, when he was born, and that I will show you out of Cyril upon this place, Et homo factus est."
Weston.--"Ergo, Christ being born, gave us his flesh."
Cranmer.--"In his nativity he made us partakers of his flesh."
Chedsey.--"This place of Hilary is so dark, that you were compelled to falsify it in your book, because you could not draw it to confirm your purpose: 'If Christ hath taken verily the flesh of our body, and the man that was verily born of the Virgin Mary is Christ, and also we receive under the true mystery the flesh of his body, by means whereof we shall be one, (for the Father is in Christ, and Christ in us,) how shall that be called the unity of will, when the natural property, brought to pass by the sacrament, is the sacrament of unity. We must not speak in the sense of man, or of the world, in matters concerning God: neither must we perversely wrest any strange or wicked sense out of the wholesome meaning of the Holy Scripture, through impudent and violent contention. Let us read those things that are written, and let us understand those things that we read, and then we shall perform the duty of perfect faith. For as touching that natural and true being of Christ in us, except we learn of him, we speak foolishly and ungodly that thing that we do speak. For he saith, My flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed: he that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, abideth in me, and I in him. As touching the verity of his flesh and blood, there is left no place of doubt: for now, both by the testimony of the Lord, and also by our faith, it is verily flesh, and verily blood.'--Here you have falsified Hilary, for you have set vero sub mysterio, for vere sub mysterio, 'we receive truly under a mystery.' Hilary thrice reporteth vere sub mysterio, and you interpret it twice vere sub mysterio, but, the third time, you have vero for vere."
Cranmer.--"Assuredly I am not guilty of any deceit herein. It may be that the copy which I followed had sub vero mysterio, i. e. under a true mystery; although touching the sense it differeth little. God, I call to witness, I have always hated falsifying, and if you had leisure and lust to hear false citations, I could recite unto you six hundred."
Weston.--"Here shall be showed you two copies of Hilary, the one printed at Basil, the other at Paris."
Cranmer.--"I suppose that Dr. Smith's book hath vero."
Weston.--"Here is Dr. Smith: let him answer for himself.--Master Smith, Master Doctor, what say you for yourself? Speak, if you know it."
Here Dr. Smith, either for the truth in his book alleged, or else astonished with Dr. Weston's hasty calling, staid to answer; for he only put off his cap, and kept silence.
Weston.--"But your own book, printed by Wolf, your own printer, hath vero."
Cranmer.--"That book is taken from me, which easily might have ended this controversy. I am sure the Book of Decrees hath vero."
Cole.--"Now you admit the Book of Decrees, when it maketh for you."
Cranmer.--"Touching the sense of the matter there is little difference. The change of one letter for another is but a small matter."
Weston.--"No? Yes; pastor, as you know, signifieth a bishop, and pistor signifleth a baker. But pastor shall be pistor, a bishop shall be a baker, by this your change of one letter, if vere and vero do nothing change the sense."
Cranmer.--"Let it be so, that in pistor and pastor one letter maketh some difference: yet let pistor be either a maker or baker of bread, ye see here the change of a letter, and yet no great difference to be in the sense."
Young.--"This disputation is taken in hand, that the truth might appear. I perceive that I must go another way to work than I had thought. It is a common saying, 'Against them that deny principles, we must not dispute.' Therefore, that we may agree of the principles, I demand, whether there be any other body of Christ, than his instrumental body?"
Cranmer.--"There is no natural body of Christ, but his organical body."
Young.--"Again I demand, whether sense and reason ought to give place to faith?"
Young.--"Thirdly, whether Christ be true in all his words?"
Cranmer.--"Yea, he is most true, and truth itself."
Young.--"Fourthly, whether Christ, at his supper, minded to do that which he spake, or no?"
Cranmer.--"In saying he spake, but in saying he made not, but made the sacrament to his disciples."
Young.--"Answer according to the truth, Whether did Christ that as God and man, which he spake, when he said, This is my body?"
Cranmer.--"This is a sophistical cavillation: go plainly to work. There is some deceit in these questions. You seek subtileness: leave your crafty fetches."
Young.--"I demand, whether Christ by these words wrought any thing or no?"
Cranmer.--"He did institute the sacrament."
Young.--"But answer, whether did he work any thing?"
Cranmer.--"He did work in instituting the sacrament."
Young.--"Now I have you; for before you said, it was a figurative speech.
"But a figure worketh nothing:
"Ergo, It is not a figurative speech. A liar ought to have a good memory."
Cranmer.--"I understood your sophistry before. You, by working, understand converting into the body of Christ: but Christ wrought the sacrament, not in converting, but in instituting."
Young.--"Woe be to them that make Christ a deceiver! Did he work any other thing than he spake, or the selfsame thing?"
Cranmer.--"He wrought the sacrament, and by these words he signified the effect."
Young.--"A figurative speech is no working thing.
"But the speech of Christ is working:
"Ergo, It is not figurative."
Cranmer.--"It worketh by instituting, not by converting."
Young.--"The thing signified in the sacrament, is it not that sacrament?"
Cranmer.--"It is; for the thing is ministered in a sign. He followeth the letter that taketh the thing for a sign. Augustine separateth the sacrament from the thing. 'The sacrament,' saith he, 'is one, and the thing of the sacrament another.'"
Weston.--"Stick to this argument.
"It is a figurative speech.
"Ergo, It worketh nothing."
Young.--"But the speech of Christ is a working thing.
"Ergo, It is not figurative."
Cranmer.--"Oh how many crafts are in this argument! they are mere fallacies. I said not, that the words of Christ do work, but Christ himself; and he worketh by a figurative speech."
Weston.--"If a figure work, it maketh of bread the body of Christ."
Cranmer.--"A figurative speech worketh not."
Weston.--"A figurative speech, by your own confession, worketh nothing.
"But the speech of Christ in the supper (as you grant) wrought somewhat.
"Ergo, The speech of Christ in the supper was not figurative."
Cranmer.--"I answer, these are mere sophisms. The speech doth not work, but Christ, by the speech, doth work the sacrament. I look for Scriptures at your hands, for they are the foundation of disputations."
Young.--"Are not these words of Scripture, This is my body? The word of Christ is of strength; and by the Lord's words the heavens were made. He said, This is my body: ergo, he made it."
Cranmer.--"He made the sacrament; and I deny your argument."
Young.--"If he wrought nothing, nothing is left there. He said, This is my body. You say, contrary to the Scriptures, it is not the body of Christ; and fall from the faith."
Cranmer.--"You interpret the Scriptures contrary to all the old writers, and feign a strange sense."
Young.--"Ambrose saith: 'Thou hast read of the works of all the world, that he spake the word, and they were made; he commanded, and they were created. Cannot the word of Christ, which made of nothing that which was not, change those things that are into that they were not? for it is no less matter to give new things, than to change natures. But what use we arguments? let us use his own examples, and let us confirm the verity of the mystery by example of his incarnation. Did the use of nature go before, when the Lord Jesus was born of Mary? If you seek the order of nature, conception is wont to be made by a woman joined to a man. It is manifest therefore, that contrary to the order of nature, a virgin did conceive: and this body that we make, is of the Virgin. What seekest thou here the order of nature in the body of Christ, when, against the order of nature, the Lord Jesus was conceived of a virgin? It was the true flesh of Christ that was crucified, and which was buried: therefore it is truly the sacrament of him. The Lord Jesus himself crieth, This is my body. Before the blessing of the heavenly words, it is named another kind: but, after the consecration, the body of Christ is signified. He calleth it his blood. Before consecration it is called another thing: after consecration it is called blood. And thou sayest, Amen; that is, It is true. That the mouth speaketh, let the inward mind confess: that the word soundeth, let the heart perceive.'
"The same Ambrose, in his fourth book of Sacraments, chap. iv., saith thus 'This bread is bread before the words of the sacraments: when the consecration cometh to it, of bread it is made the flesh of Christ. Let us confirm this, therefore. How can that which is bread, by consecration be the body of Christ? by what words then is the consecration made, and by whose words? By the words of our Lord Jesus. For touching all other things that are said, praise is given to God, prayer is made for the people, for kings, and for the rest. When it cometh that the reverend sacrament must be made, then the priest useth not his own words, but the words of Christ: therefore the word of Christ maketh this sacrament. What word? That word, by which all things were made. The Lord commanded, and heaven was made: the Lord commanded, and the earth was made: the Lord commanded, and the seas were made: the Lord commanded, and all creatures were made. Post thou not see then how strong in working the word of Christ is? If therefore so great strength be in the Lord's word, that those things should begin to be, which were not before, how much the rather is it of strength to work, that these things which were, should be changed into another thing?' Ambrose saith, that the words are of strength to work."
Weston.--"You omit those words which follow, which make the sense of Ambrose plain: read them."
Young.--"'Heaven was not, the sea was not, the earth was not: but hear him that said, He spake the word, and they were made; be commanded, and they were created. Therefore, to answer thee, it was not the body of Christ before consecration: but after the consecration I say to thee, that now it is the body of Christ.'"
Cranmer.--"All these things are common. I say, that God doth chiefly work in the sacraments."
Young.--"How doth he work?"
Cranmer.--"By his power, as he doth in baptism."
Young.--"Nay, by the word he changeth the bread into his body. This is the truth: acknowledge the truth; give place to the truth."
Cranmer.--"O glorious words! You are too full of words."
Young.--"Nay, O glorious truth!-- You make no change at all."
Cranmer.--"Not so, but I make a great change; as, in them that are baptized, is there not a great change, when the child of the bondslave of the devil, is made the Son of God? So it is also in the sacrament of the supper, when he receiveth us into his protection and favour."
Young.--"If he work in the sacraments, he worketh in this sacrament."
Cranmer.--"God worketh in his faithful, not in the sacraments."
Weston.--"In the supper the words are directed to the bread; in baptism, to the Spirit. He said not, the water is the Spirit, but of the bread he said, This is my body."
Cranmer.--"He called the Spirit a dove, when the Spirit descended in likeness of a dove."
Weston.--"He doth not call the Spirit a dove; but he saith, that he descended as a dove. He was seen in the likeness of a dove. As in baptism the words are directed to him that is baptized, so in the supper the words are directed unto the bread."
Cranmer.--"Nay it is written, Upon whomsoever thou shalt see the Spirit descending. He calleth that which descended, the Holy Spirit. And Augustine calleth the dove, the Spirit. Hear what Augustine saith in John i., 'What meant he by the dove, that is, by the Holy Ghost? forsooth, to teach who sent him.'"
Young.--"He understandeth of the Spirit descending as a dove: the Spirit is invisible. If you mind to have the truth heard, let us proceed. Hear what Ambrose saith: 'You see what a working power the word of Christ hath. Therefore, if there be so great power in the Lord's word, that those things which were not, begin to be, how much more of strength is it, to work that those things that were, should be changed into another thing?' And in the fifth chapter, 'Before it is consecrated, it is bread: but, when the words of Christ come to it, it is the body of Christ.' But, hear what he saith more: 'Take ye, eat ye; this is my body. Before the words of Christ, the cup is full of wine and water: when the words of Christ have wrought, there is made the blood of Christ which redeemed the people.' What can be more plain?"
Cranmer.--"Nay, what can be less to the purpose? The words are of strength to work in this sacrament, as they are in baptism."
Pie.--"The words of Christ, as Ambrose saith, are of strength to work. What do they work?-- Ambrose saith, 'They make the blood which redeemed the people.'
"Ergo, The natural blood is made."
Cranmer.--"The sacrament of his blood is made. The words make the blood to them that receive it: not that the blood is in the cup, but in the receiver."
Pie.--"There is made the blood which redeemed the people."
Cranmer.--"The blood is made; that is, the sacrament of the blood, by which he redeemed the people. Fit, it is made;' that is to say, ostenditur, 'it is showed forth there.' And Ambrose saith, we receive in a similitude: 'As thou hast received the similitude of his death, so also thou drinkest the similitude of his precious blood.'"
Weston.--"He saith, 'in a similitude,' because it is ministered under another likeness. And this is the argument:
"There is made the blood which redeemed the people.
"But the natural blood redeemed the people:
"Ergo, There is the natural blood of Christ.
"You answer, that words make it blood to them that receive it; not that blood is in the cup, but because it is made blood to them that receive it. That all men may see how falsely you would avoid the fathers, hear what Ambrose saith in the sixth book and first chapter. Peradventure thou wilt say, How be they true? I, who see the similitude, do not see the truth of the blood. First of all I told thee of the word of Christ, which so worketh, that it can change and turn kinds ordained by nature. Afterward, when the disciples could not abide the words of Christ, but hearing that he gave his flesh to eat, and his blood to drink, they departed. Only Peter said, Thou hast the words of eternal life; whither should I go from thee? Lest therefore more should say this thing, as though there should be a certain horror of blood, and yet the grace of redemption should remain: therefore, in a similitude thou receivest the sacrament, but indeed thou obtainest the grace and power of his nature.'"
Cranmer.--"These words of themselves are plain enough. [And he read this place again, 'Thou receivest the sacrament for a similitude.'] But what is that he saith, Thou receivest for a similitude? I think he understandeth the sacrament to be the similitude of his blood."
Chedsey.--"That you may understand that truth dissenteth not from truth, to overthrow that which you say of that similitude, hear what Ambrose saith, in his fourth book of Sacraments: 'If the heavenly word did work in other things, doth it not work in the heavenly sacraments? Therefore thou hast learned, that of bread is made the body of Christ; and that wine and water is put into that cup, but, by consecration of the heavenly word, it is made blood. But thou wilt say peradventure, that the likeness of blood is not seen. But it hath a similitude. For as thou hast received the similitude of his death, so also thou drinkest the similitude of his precious blood; so that there is no horror of blood, and yet it worketh the price of redemption. Therefore thou hast learned, that that which thou receivest is the body of Christ.'"
Cranmer.--"He speaketh of sacraments sacramentally. He calleth the sacraments by the names of the things; for he useth the signs for the things signified: and therefore the bread is not called bread, but his body, for the excellency and dignity of the thing signified by it. So doth Ambrose interpret himself, when he saith, 'For a type or figure whereof we receive the mystical cup of his blood, for the safeguard of our bodies and souls.'"
Chedsey.--"A type? He calleth not the blood of Christ a type or sign: but the blood of bulls and goats in that respect was a type or sign."
Cranmer.--"This is new learning; you shall never read this among the fathers."
Chedsey.--"But Ambrose saith so."
Cranmer.--"He calleth the bread and the cup a type or sign of the blood of Christ, and of his benefit."
Weston.--"Ambrose understandeth it for a type of his benefit; that is, of redemption: not of the blood of Christ, but of his passion. The cup is the type or sign of his death, seeing it is his blood."
Cranmer.--"He saith most plainly, that the cup is a type of Christ's blood."
Chedsey.--"As Christ is truly and really incarnate, so is he truly and really in the sacrament.
"But Christ is really and truly incarnate:
"Ergo, The body of Christ is truly and really in the sacrament."
Cranmer.--"I deny the major."
Chedsey.--"I prove the major out of Justin, in his second Apology, Ον τροπον δια λογου θεου σαρκοποιηθεις Ιησους Χριστος, ο σωτηρ ημων, και σαρκα και αιμα υπερ σοτηριας ημων εχεν, ουτω και την δι ευχης λογου του παρ αυτου ευχαριστηθηισαν τροφην, εξ ης αιμα και σαρκες κατα μεταβολην τρεφονται ημων, εκεινου του σαρκοροιηθεντοσ Ιησου και αιμα εδιδαχθημεν ειναι.[Greek: On tropon dia ogou theou sarkopoietheis Iesous Christos, o soter emon, kai sarka kai aima yper soterias emon echen, oyte kai ten di euches logou tou par aytou eucharistepheisan trophen, ex es aima kai sarkes kata metabolen trephontai emon, ekeinou tou sarkoroiethentos Iesou kai aima edidachthemen einai]"
Cranmer.--"This place hath been falsified by Marcus Constantius. Justin meant nothing else but that the bread which nourishes us is called the body of Christ."
Chedsey.--"To the argument. As Christ is truly and naturally incarnate, &c. ut supra."
Cranmer.--"I deny your major."
Chedsey.--"The words of Justin are thus to be interpreted word for word: As by the word of God, Jesus Christ our Saviour, being made flesh, had both flesh and blood for our salvation: so we are taught, that the meat consecrated by the word of prayer, instituted of him, whereby our blood and flesh are nourished by communion, is the flesh and blood of the same Jesus which was made flesh," &c.
Cranmer.--"You have translated it well; but I deny your major. This is the sense of Justin: that the bread is called the body of Christ; and yet of that sanctified meat our bodies are nourished.'
Chedsey.--"Nay, he saith, that of that sanctified meat both our bodies and souls are nourished."
Cranmer.--"He saith not so; but he saith that it nourisheth our flesh and blood: and how can that nourish the soul, that nourisheth the flesh and blood."
Cole.--"It feedeth the body by the soul."
Cranmer.--"Speak uprightly. Can that which is received by the soul and spirit be called the meat of the body?"
Weston.--"Hear then what Irenĉus saith: 'This, the same cup which is a creature, he confirmed to be his body, by which he increaseth our bodies. When both the cup mixed, and the bread broken, hath joined to it the word of God, it is made the sacrament of the body and blood of Christ, of which the substance of our flesh is increased and consisteth.'
"The substance of our flesh is increased by the body and blood of Christ:
"Ergo, Our body is nourished by the body and blood of Christ."
Cranmer.--"I deny your argument. He calleth it the flesh and blood, for the sacrament of the body and blood; as Tertullian also saith: Our flesh is nourished with symbolical or sacramental bread; but our soul is nourished with the body of Christ."'
Weston.--"Look what he saith more: 'How do they say, that the flesh cannot receive the gift of God that is eternal life, which is nourished with the blood and body of Christ?' That is in the fifth book, two leaves from the beginning."
Cranmer.--"The body is nourished both with the sacrament, and with the body of Christ; with the sacrament to a temporal life; with the body of Christ to eternal life."
Chedsey.--"I cannot but be sorry when I see such a manifest lie in your writings. For whereas you translate Justin on this fashion; that the bread, water, and wine, are not so to be taken in this sacrament, as common meats and drinks are wont to be taken of us, but are meats chosen out peculiarly for this; namely, for the giving of thanks, and therefore be called of the Greeks eucharistia, that is, thanksgiving -- they are called moreover the blood and body of Christ (so have you translated it)-- the words of Justin are thus: 'We are taught that the meat consecrated by the word of prayer, by the which our flesh and blood is nourished by communion, is the body and blood of the same Jesus who was made flesh.'"
Cranmer.--"I did not translate it word for word, but only I gave the meaning: and I go nothing from his meaning."
Harpsfield.--"You remember, touching Justin,to whom this apology was written; namely, to a heathen man. The heathen thought that the Christians came to the church to worship bread: Justin answereth, that we come not to common bread, but as to, &c., as is said afore. Weigh the place well; it is right worthy to be noted: 'Our flesh is nourished according to mutation.'"
Cranmer.--"We ought not to consider the bare bread, but whosoever cometh to the sacrament eateth the true body of Christ."
Weston.--"You have corrupted Emissene; for instead of to be filled with meat,' you have set 'to be filled with spiritual meats.'"
Cranmer.--"I have not corrupted it; for it is so in the Decrees."
Weston.--"You have corrupted another place of Emissene; for you have omitted these words, Marvel thou when thou comest up to the reverend altar to be filled with spiritual meats: look in faith to the holy body and blood of thy God; marvel at his honour; worthily touch him.'"
Cranmer.--"This book hath not that."
Weston.--"Also you have falsified this place by evil translating, 'Honour the body of thy God.' You have translated it, 'Honour him which is thy God.' Whereas Emissene hath not honour him,' but 'honour the body of thy God.'"
Cranmer.--"I have so translated him, and yet no less truly, than not without a weighty cause; else it should not have been without danger, if I had translated it thus: 'Honour the body of thy God;' because of certain that (according to the error of the Anthropomorphites) dreamed that God had a body."
Weston.--"Nay, you most of all have brought the people into that error, who so long have taught that he sitteth at the right hand of God the Father; and counted me for a heretic, because I preached that God had no right hand. Then I will oppose you in the very articles of your faith.
"Christ sitteth at the right hand of God the Father.
"But God the Father hath no right hand: "Ergo, Where is Christ now?"
Cranmer.--"I am not so ignorant a novice in the articles of my faith, but that I understand that to sit at the right hand of God, doth signify to be equal in the glory of the Father."
Weston.--"Now then take this argument.
"Wheresoever God's authority is, there is Christ's body.
"But God's authority is in every place:
"Ergo, What letteth the body of Christ to be in every place.-- Moreover you have also corrupted Duns."
Cranmer.--"That is a great offence, I promise you."
Weston.--"For you have omitted as it appeareth whereas his words are these, If you demand why the church did choose this so hard an understanding of this article, whereas the words of Scripture may be salved after an easy and true understanding (as appeareth) of this article,'" &c.
Cranmer.--"It is not so."
Weston.--"Also you have set forth a catechism in the name of the synod of London, and yet there be fifty, who, witnessing that they were of the number of the convocation, never heard one word of this catechism."
Cranmer.--"I was ignorant of the setting to of that title; and as soon as I had knowledge thereof, I did not like it. Therefore, when I complained thereof to the council, it was answered me by them, that the book was so entitled, because it was set forth in the time of the convocation."
Weston.--"Moreover, you have in Duns translated 'in the Church of Rome,' for 'the catholic church.'"
Cranmer.--"Yea; but he meant the Romish church."
Weston.--"Moreover you have depraved St. Thomas, namely, where he hath these words: 'Inasmuch as it is a sacrifice, it hath the power of satisfaction: but in satisfaction the affection of the offerer is more to be weighed, than the quantity of the oblation. Wherefore the Lord said, in Luke's Gospel, of the widow which offered two mites, that she cast in more than they all. Therefore, although this oblation of the quantity of itself will suffice to satisfy for all pain, yet it is made satisfactory to them for whom it is offered, or to the offerers, according to the quantity of their devotion, and not for all the pain.' You have thus turned it: 'That the sacrifice of the priest hath power of satisfaction,' &c. And therefore in this place you have chopped in this word, of the priest;' whereas, in the translation of all the New Testament, you have not set it but where Christ was put to death. And again, where St. Thomas hath 'for all pain,' your book omitteth many things there. Thus you see, brethren, the truth stedfast and invincible. You see, also, the craft and deceit of heretics. The truth may be pressed, but it cannot be oppressed: therefore cry altogether, The truth overcometh.'"
This disordered disputation, sometimes in Latin, sometimes in English, continued almost till two of the clock. Which being finished, and the arguments written and delivered to the hands of Master Say, the prisoner was had away by the mayor, and the doctors dined together at the University college.