252. DISPUTATION OF LATIMER AT OXFORDFTER these disputations of Bishop Ridley ended, next was brought out Master Hugh Latimer to dispute, upon Wednesday, which was the eighteenth day of April; which disputation began at eight of the clock, in such form as before: but it was most in English. For Master Latimer, the answerer, alleged that he was out of use with the Latin, and unfit for that place.
††††††††††† There replied unto him Master Smith of Oriel college; Dr. Cartwright, Master Harpsfield, and divers others, had snatches at him, and gave him bitter taunts. He escaped not hissings and scornful laughings, no more than they that went before him. He was very faint, and desired that he might not long tarry. He durst not drink for fear of vomiting. The disputation ended before eleven of the clock. Master Latimer was not suffered to read what he had (as he said) painfully written: but it was exhibited up, and the prolocutor read part thereof, and so proceeded unto the disputation.
(The preface of Weston unto the disputation following.)
††††††††††† Weston.--"Men and brethren! we are come together this day, (by the help of God,) to vanquish the strength of the arguments, and dispersed opinions of adversaries, against the truth of the real presence of the Lord's body in the sacrament. And therefore, you father, if you have any thing to answer, I do admonish you that you answer in short and few words."
††††††††††† Latimer.--"I pray you, good Master Prolocutor, do not exact that of me, which is not in me, I have not these twenty years much used the Latin tongue."
††††††††††† Weston.--"Take your ease, father."
††††††††††† Latimer.--"I thank you, sir, I am well; let me here protest my faith, for I am not able to dispute; and afterwards do your pleasure with me."
The protestation of Master Hugh Latimer, given up in writing to Dr. Weston.
††††††††††† "The conclusions whereunto I must answer are these:
††††††††††† "The first is, that in the sacrament of the altar, by the virtue of God's word pronounced by the priest, there is really present the natural body of Christ, conceived of the Virgin Mary, under the kinds of the appearance of bread and wine: in like manner his blood.
††††††††††† "The second is, that after consecration there remaineth no substance of bread and wine, nor any other substance, but the substance of God and man.
††††††††††† "The third is, that in the mass there is the lively sacrifice of the church, which is propitiable, as well for the sins of the quick, as of the dead.
††††††††††† "Concerning the first conclusion, methinketh it is set forth with certain new-found terms that be obscure, and do not sound according to the speech of the Scripture. Howbeit, howsoever I understand it, this I do answer plainly, though not without peril -- I answer, I say, that to the right celebration of the Lord's supper there is no other presence of Christ required, than a spiritual presence: and this presence is sufficient for a Christian man, as a presence by which we abide in Christ, and Christ abided in us, to the obtaining of eternal life, if we persevere. And this same presence may be called most fitly a real presence; that is, a presence not feigned, but a true and a faithful presence: which thing I here rehearse, lest some sycophant or scorner should suppose me, with the Anabaptists, to make nothing else of the sacrament, but a naked and a bare sign. As for that which is feigned of many, concerning their corporal presence, I, for my part, take it but for a papistical invention; therefore think it utterly to be rejected.
††††††††††† "Concerning the second conclusion, I dare be bold to say, that it hath no stay or ground in God's word, but is a thing invented and found out by man; and therefore to be taken as fond and false: and I had almost said, as the mother and nurse of the other errors. It were good for any lords and masters of the transubstantiation, to take heed lest they conspire with the Nestorians, for I do not see how they can avoid it.
††††††††††† "The third conclusion (as I do understand it) seemeth subtlely to sow sedition against the offering which Christ himself offered for us in his own proper person, according to that pithy place of Paul, where he saith, That Christ, his own self, hath made purgation of our sins. And afterward, That he might, saith he, be a merciful bishop, concerning those things which are to be done with God, for the taking away of our sins. So that the expiation or taking away of our sins, may be thought rather to depend on this, that Christ was an offering bishop, than that he was offered, were it not that he was offered of himself: and therefore it is needless that he should be offered of any other. I will speak nothing of the wonderful presumption of man, to dare to attempt this thing without a manifest vocation, specially in that it tendeth to the overthrowing and making fruitless (if not wholly, yet partly) of the cross of Christ; for truly it is no base or mean thing to offer Christ. And therefore worthily a man may say to my lords and masters the offerers, By what authority do ye this, and who gave you this authority? -- Where? when?-- A man cannot, saith the Baptist, take any thing except it be given him from above: much less then may any man presume to usurp any honour, before he be thereto called. Again, If any man sin, saith St. John, we have, saith he,--(not a master or offerer at home, which can sacrifice for us at mass; but we have, saith he,) an advocate, Jesus Christ, which once offered himself long ago; of which offering the efficacy and effect is perdurable for ever, so that it is needless to have such offerers.
††††††††††† "What meaneth Paul, when he saith, They that serve at the altar are partakers of the altar? and so addeth, So the Lord hath ordained, that they that preach the gospel, shall live of the gospel.-- Whereas he should have said, The Lord hath ordained, that they that sacrifice at mass, should live of their sacrificing; that there might be a living assigned to our sacrificers now, as was before Christ's coming, to the Jewish priests. For now they have nothing to allege for their living, as they that be preachers have. So that it appeareth, that the sacrificing priesthood is changed by God's ordinance into a preaching priesthood; and the sacrificing priesthood should cease utterly, saving inasmuch as all Christian men are sacrificing priests.
††††††††††† "The supper of the Lord was instituted to provoke us to thanksgiving for the offering which the Lord himself did offer for us, much rather than that our offerers should do there as they do. Feed, saith Peter, as much as ye may, the flock of Christ: nay, rather, let us sacrifice as much as we may, for the flock of Christ. If so be the matter he as now men make it, I can never wonder enough, that Peter would or could forget this office of sacrificing, which, at this day, is in such a price and estimation that to feed is almost nothing with many. If thou cease from feeding the flock, how shalt thou be taken? Truly, catholic enough. But if thou cease from sacrificing and massing, how will that be taken? At the least, I warrant thee, thou shalt be called a heretic. And whence, I pray you, come these papistical judgments? except, perchance, they think a man feedeth the flock, in sacrificing for them: and then what needeth there any learned pastors? For no man is so foolish, but soon may he learn to sacrifice and mass it.
††††††††††† "Thus, lo! I have taken the more pains to write, because I refused to dispute, in consideration of my debility thereunto: that all men may know, how that I have so done not without great pains, having not any man to help me, as I have never before been debarred to have. Oh, sir! you may chance to live till you come to this age and weakness that I am of. I have spoken in my time before two kings more than once, two or three hours together, without interruption; but now, that I may speak the truth, (by your leave,) I could not be suffered to declare my mind before you, no, not by the space of a quarter of an hour, without snatches, revilings, checks, rebukes, taunts, such as I have not felt the like, in such an audience, all my life long.
††††††††††† "Surely it cannot be but a heinous offence that I have given. But what was it? Forsooth I had spoken of the four marrow-hones of the mass; the which kind of speaking I never read to be a sin against the Holy Ghost. I could not be allowed to show what I meant by my metaphor; but, sir, now, by your favour, I will tell your mastership what I mean:" The first, is 'the popish consecration,' which hath been called a god's body-making. The second, is 'transubstantiation.' The third, is the 'Missal oblation.' The fourth, 'adoration.'
††††††††††† "These chief and principal portions, parts, and points, belonging or incident to the mass, and most esteemed and had in price in the same, I call 'the marrow-bones of the mass;' which indeed you, by force, might, and violence, intrude in sound of words in some of the Scripture, with racking and cramping, injuring and wronging the same: but else, indeed, plain out of the Scripture, as I am thoroughly persuaded; although in disputation I now could nothing do to persuade the same to others, being both unapt to study, and also to make a show of my former study, in such readiness as should be requisite to the same.
††††††††††† "I have heard much talk of Master Doctor Weston to and fro in my time: but I never knew your person to my knowledge, till I came before you, as the queen's Majesty's commissioner. I pray God send you so right judgment, as I perceive you have a great wit, the great learning, with many other qualities. God give you grace ever well to use them, and ever to have in remembrance, that he that dwelleth on high, looketh on the low things on the earth; and that there is no counsel against the Lord; and also that this world hath been, and yet is, a tottering world. And yet again, that though we must obey the princes, yet that hath this limitation; namely, in the Lord. For whoso doth obey them against the Lord, they be most pernicious to them, and the greatest adversaries that they have; for they so procure God's vengeance upon them, if God be only the ruler of things.
††††††††††† "There be some so corrupt in mind, the truth being taken from them, that they think gain to be godliness; great learned men, and yet men of no learning, but of railing, and raging about questions and strife of words. I call them men of no learning, because they know not Christ, how much else soever they know. And on this sort we are wont to call great learned clerks, being ignorant of Christ, unlearned men; for it is nothing but plain ignorance, to know any thing without Christ: whereas whoso knoweth Christ, the same hath knowledge enough, although in other knowledge he be to seek. The apostle St. Paul confesseth of himself to the Corinthians, that he did know nothing but Jesus Christ crucified. Many men babble many things of Christ which yet know not Christ; but, pretending Christ, do craftily colour and darken his glory. Depart from such men, saith the apostle St. Paul to Timothy.
††††††††††† "It is not out of the way to remember what St. Augustine saith. The place where, I now well remember not, except it be against the epistles of Petilian 'Whosoever,' saith he, 'teacheth any thing necessarily to be believed, which is not contained inthe Old and New Testament, the same is accursed.' Oh! beware of this curse if you be wise. I am much deceived if Basil have not such like words: 'Whatsoever,' saith he, 'is beside the Holy Scripture, if the same be taught as necessarily to be believed, that is sin.' Oh therefore take heed of this sin!
††††††††††† "There be some that speak many false things more probable, and more like to the truth, than the truth itself. Therefore Paul giveth a watchword: Let no man, saith he, deceive you with probability and persuasions of words.--'But what mean you,' saith one, 'by this talk so far from the matter?' Well, I hope, good masters, you will suffer an old man a little to play the child, and to speak one thing twice. O Lord God!-- you have changed the most holy communion into a private action; and you deny to the laity the Lord's cup, contrary to Christ's commandment. And you do blemish the annunciation of the Lord's death till he come; for you have changed the common prayer, called the divine service, with the administration of the sacraments, from the vulgar and known language, into a strange tongue, contrary to the will of the Lord revealed in his word. God open the door of your heart, to see the things you should see herein! I would as fain obey my sovereign as any in this realm; but, in these things, I can never do it with an upright conscience. God be merciful unto us. Amen!"
††††††††††† Weston.--"Then refuse you to dispute? Will you here then subscribe?"
††††††††††† Latimer.--"No, good master; I pray be good to an old man. You may, if it please God, be once old, as I am: you may come to this age, and to this debility."
††††††††††† Weston.--"Ye said, upon Saturday last, that ye could not find the mass, nor the marrow-bones thereof, in your book: but we will find a mass in that book."
††††††††††† Latimer.--"No, good Master Doctor, ye cannot."
††††††††††† Weston.--"What find you then there?"
††††††††††† Latimer.--"Forsooth, a communion I find there."
††††††††††† Weston.--"Which communion?-- the first or the last?"
††††††††††† Latimer.--"I find no great diversity in them; they are one supper of the Lord; but I like the last very well."
††††††††††† Weston.--"Then the first was naught, belike."
††††††††††† Latimer.--"I do not well remember wherein they differ."
††††††††††† Weston.--"Then cake-bread and loaf-bread are all one with you. Ye call it the supper of the Lord, but you are deceived in that: for they had done the supper before, and therefore the Scripture saith, after they had supped: For ye know that St. Paul findeth fault with the Corinthians, for that some of them were drunken at this supper; and ye know no man can be drunken at our communion."
††††††††††† Latimer.--"The first was called The Jewish supper,' when they did eat the paschal lamb together; the other was called 'The Lord's supper.'"
††††††††††† Weston.--"That is false; for Chrysostom denieth that. And St. Ambrose, on I Cor. x., saith, that 'the mystery of the sacrament, given as they were at supper, is not the supper of the Lord.' And Gregory Nazianzen saith the same: 'Again he kept the holy feast of passover with his disciples in the dining chamber, after the supper, and one day before his passion. But we keep it both in the churches and houses of prayer, both before the supper, and also after the resurrection. And that first supper was called αγαπη [Greek: agape]: can you tell what that is?"
††††††††††† Latimer.--"I understand no Greek: yet I think it meaneth charity."
††††††††††† Weston.--"Will you have all things done that Christ did then? Why, then, must the priest be hanged on the morrow.-- And where find you, I pray you, that a woman should receive the sacrament?"
††††††††††† Latimer.--"Will you give me leave to turn my book: I find it in 1 Cor. xi. I trow these be his words: probet autem seipsum homo, &c.-- I pray you, good master, what gender is homo?"
††††††††††† Weston.--"Marry, the common gender."
††††††††††† Cole.--"It is in the Greek, ο ανθρωπος [o anthropos]."
††††††††††† Harpsfield.--"It is ανης [anes], that is, vir."
††††††††††† Latimer.--"It is in my book of Erasmus's translation, probet seipsum homo."
††††††††††† Fecknam.--"It is probet seipsum indeed, and therefore it importeth the masculine gender."
††††††††††† Latimer.--"What then? I trow when the woman touched Christ, he said, Who touched me? I know that some man touched me."
††††††††††† Weston.--"I will be at host with you anon.--cWhen Christ was at his supper, none were with him but his apostles only: ergo, he meant no woman, if you will have his institution kept."
††††††††††† Latimer.--"In the twelve apostles was represented the whole church, in which you will grant both men and women to be."
††††††††††† Weston.--"So through the whole heretically translated Bible ye never make mention of priest, till ye come to the putting of Christ to death. Where find you then that a priest or minister (a minstrel, I may call him well enough) should do it of necessity?"
††††††††††† Latimer.--"A minister is a more fit name for that office; for the name of a priest importeth a sacrifice."
††††††††††† Weston.--"Well, remember that ye cannot find that a woman may receive by Scripture. Master Opponent, fall to it."
††††††††††† Smith.--"Because I perceive that this charge is laid upon my neck to dispute with you: to the end that the same may go forward after a right manner and order, I will propose three questions, so as they are put forth unto me. And first I ask this question of you, although the same indeed ought not to be called in question; but such is the condition of the church, that it is always vexed of the wicked sort. I ask, I say, whether Christ's body be really in the sacrament?"
††††††††††† Latimer.--"I trust I have obtained of Master Prolocutor, that no man shall exact that thing of me, which is not in me. And I am sorry that this worshipful audience should be deceived of their expectation for my sake. I have given up my mind in writing to Master Prolocutor."
††††††††††† Smith.--"Whatsoever ye have given up, it shall be registered among the acts."
††††††††††† Latimer.--"Disputation requireth a good memory; my memory is gone clean, and marvellously weakened, and never the better, I wis, for the prison.
††††††††††† Weston.--"How long have ye been in prison?"
††††††††††† Latimer.--"These three quarters of this year."
††††††††††† Weston.--"And I was in prison six years."
††††††††††† Latimer.--"The more pity, sir."
††††††††††† Weston.--"How long have you been of this opinion?"
††††††††††† Latimer.--"It is not long, sir, that I have been of this opinion."
††††††††††† Weston.--"The time hath been, when you said mass full devoutly."
††††††††††† Latimer.--"Yea, I cry God mercy heartily for it."
††††††††††† Weston.--"Where learned you this new-fangleness?"
††††††††††† Latimer.--"I have long sought for the truth in this matter of the sacrament, and have not been of this mind past seven years: and my Lord of Canterbury's book hath especially confirmed my judgment herein. If I could remember all therein contained, I would not fear to answer any man in this matter."
††††††††††† Tresham.--"There are in that book six hundred errors."
††††††††††† Weston.--"You were once a Lutheran."
††††††††††† Latimer.--"No, I was a papist: for I never could perceive how Luther could defend his opinion without transubstantiation. The Zurichers once did write a book against Luther, and I oft desired God, that he might live so long to make them answer."
††††††††††† Weston.--"Luther, in his book De privata Missa, said, that the devil reasoned with him, and persuaded him that the mass was not good. Whereof it may appear, that Luther said mass, and the devil dissuaded him from it."
††††††††††† Latimer.--"I do not take in hand here to defend Luther's sayings or doings. If he were here, he would defend himself well enough, I trow. I told you before, that I am not meet for disputations. I pray you read mine answer, wherein I have declared my faith."
††††††††††† Weston.--"Do you believe this, as you have written?"
††††††††††† Latimer.--"Yea, sir."
††††††††††† Weston.--"Then have you no faith."
††††††††††† Latimer.--"Then would I be sorry, sir."
††††††††††† Tresham.--"It is written, Except ye shall eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye shall have no life in you. Which when the Capernaites, and many of Christ's disciples, heard, they said, This is a hard saying, &c. Now that the troth may the better appear, here I ask of you, whether Christ, speaking these words, did mean of his flesh to be eaten with the mouth, or the spiritual eating of the same?"
††††††††††† Latimer.--"I answer as Augustine understandeth: that Christ meant of the spiritual eating of his flesh."
††††††††††† Tresham.--"Of what flesh meant Christ? his true flesh, or no?"
††††††††††† Latimer.--"Of his true flesh, spiritually to be eaten in the supper by faith, and not corporally."
††††††††††† Tresham.--"Of what flesh mean the Capernaites?"
††††††††††† Latimer.--"Of his true flesh also; but to be taken with the mouth."
††††††††††† Tresham.--"They, as ye confess, did mean his true flesh to be taken with the mouth. And Christ also, as I shall prove, did speak of the receiving of his flesh with the mouth. Ergo, they both did understand it of the eating of one thing, which is done by the mouth of the body."
††††††††††† Latimer.--"I say, Christ understood it not of the bodily mouth, but of the mouth of the spirit; mind, and heart."
††††††††††† Tresham.--"I prove the contrary, that Christ understandeth it of the eating with the bodily mouth. For whereas custom is a right good mistress and interpreter of things, and whereas the acts put in practice by Christ, do certainly declare those things which he first spake: Christ's deeds in his supper, where he gave his body to be taken with the mouth, together with the custom which hath been ever since that time, of that eating which is done with the mouth, doth evidently infer that Christ did un-derstand his words, here cited of me out of John vi., of the eating with the mouth."
††††††††††† Latimer.--"He gave not his body to be received with the mouth, but he gave the sacrament of his body to be received with the mouth: he gave the sacrament to the mouth, his body to the mind."
††††††††††† Tresham.--"But my reason doth conclude, that Christ spake concerning his flesh to be received with the corporal mouth: for otherwise (which God forbid) he had been a deceiver, and had not been offensive to the Capernaites and his disciples, if he had not meant in this point as they thought he meant: for if he had thought as you do feign, it had been an easy matter for him to have said, You shall not eat my flesh with your mouth, but the sacrament of my flesh; that is to say, ye shall receive with your mouth not the thing itself, but the figure of the thing; and thus he might have satisfied them: but so he said not, but continued in the truth of his words, as he was wont. Therefore Christ meant the selfsame thing that the Capernaites did, I mean concerning the thing itself to be received with the mouth; videlicet, that his true flesh is truly to be eaten with the mouth. Moreover, forasmuch as you do expound for 'the body of Christ,' 'the sacrament of the body of Christ,' and hereby do suppose that we obtain but a spiritual union, or union of the mind between us and Christ, plain it is, that you are deceived in this thing, and do err from the mind of the fathers: for they affirm by plain and express words, that we are corporally and carnally joined together. And these be the words of Hilary: Therefore, if Christ did truly take the flesh of our body upon him, and the same man be Christ indeed, which was born of Mary; then we also do receive under a mystery the flesh of his body indeed, and thereby shall become one; because-the Father is in him, and he in us. How is the unity of will affirmed, when a natural propriety by the sacrament is a perfect sacrament of unity?' Thus far hath Hilary. Lo! here you see how manifestly these words confound your assertion. To be short, I myself have heard you preaching at Greenwich before King Henry the Eighth, where you did openly affirm, that no Christian man ought to doubt of the true and real presence of Christ's body in the sacrament, forasmuch as he had the word of Scripture on his side; videlicet, This is my body; whereby he might be confirmed. But now there is the same truth; the word of Scripture hath the selfsame thing which it then had. Therefore why do you deny at this present that, whereof it was not lawful once to doubt before, when you taught it?"
††††††††††† Latimer.--"Will you give me leave to speak?"
††††††††††† Tresham.--"Speak Latin, I pray you; for ye can do it, if ye list, promptly enough."
††††††††††† Latimer.--"I cannot speak Latin so long and so largely. Master Prolocutor hath given me leave to speak English. And as for the words of Hilary, I think they make not so much for you. But he that shall answer the doctors, had not need to be in my case, but should have them in a readiness, and know their purpose. Melancthon saith, 'If the doctors had foreseen that they should have been so taken in this controversy, they would have written more plainly.'"
††††††††††† Smith.--"I will reduce the words of Hilary into the form of a syllogism.
††††††††††† "Such as is the unity of our flesh with Christ's flesh, such, yea greater, is the unity of Christ with the Father.
††††††††††† "But the unity of Christ's flesh with ours, is true and substantial:
††††††††††† "Ergo, The unity of Christ with the Father, is true and substantial."
††††††††††† Latimer.--"I understand you not."
††††††††††† Scion.--"I know your learning well enough, and how subtle ye be: I will use a few words with you, and that out of Cyprian, De Cúna Domini. 'The Old Testament doth forbid the drinking of blood. The New Testament doth command the drinking and tasting of blood: but where doth it command the drinking of blood?'"
††††††††††† Latimer.--"In these words, Drink ye all of this."
††††††††††† Seton.--"Then we taste true blood."
††††††††††† Latimer.--"We do taste true blood, but spiritually; and this is enough."
††††††††††† Seton.--"Nay, the Old and New Testament in this do differ: for the one doth command, and the other doth forbid, to drink blood."
††††††††††† Latimer.--"It is true as touching the matter; but not as touching the manner of the thing."
††††††††††† Seton.--"Then there is no difference between the drinking of blood in the New Testament, and that of the Old: for they also drank spiritually."
††††††††††† Latimer.--"And we drink spiritually, also; but a more precious blood."
††††††††††† Weston.--"Augustine, upon the 45th Psalm, saith, 'Drink boldly the blood which ye have poured out.'--Ergo, it is blood."
††††††††††† Latimer.--"I never denied it, nor ever will I go from it, but that we drink the very blood of Christ indeed, but spiritually: for the same St. Augustine saith, 'Believe, and thou hast eaten.'"
††††††††††† Weston.--"Nay, 'To believe, is not to drink or eat.' You will not say,I pledge you, when I say, I believe in God."
††††††††††† Latimer.--"Is not 'to eat,' in your learning put for 'to believe?'"
††††††††††† Weston.--"I remember my lord chancellor demanded Master Hooper of these questions, whether ''to eat,' were 'to believe;' and 'an altar,' were Christ, in all the Scripture, &c.: and he answered, 'Yea.' Then said my lord chancellor, 'Why then, We have an altar of which it is not lawful to eat, is as much to say, We have a Christ in whom we may not believe.'"
††††††††††† Tresham.--"'Believe, and thou hast eaten,' is spoken of the spiritual eating."
††††††††††† Latimer.--"It is true, I do allow your saying; I take it so also."
††††††††††† Weston.--"We are commanded to drink blood in the new law.-- Ergo, it is very blood."
††††††††††† Latimer.--"We drink blood, so as appertaineth to us to drink to our comfort, in sacramental wine. We drink blood sacramentally: he gave us his blood to drink spiritually: he went about to show, that as certain as we drink wine, so certainly we drink his blood spiritually."
††††††††††† Weston.--"Do not you seem to be a papist, which do bring in new words, not found in Scripture? Where find you that 'sacramentally,' in God's book?"
††††††††††† Latimer.--"It is necessarily gathered upon Scripture."
††††††††††† Weston.--"The Old Testament doth forbid the tasting of blood, but the New doth command
††††††††††† Latimer.--"It is true, not as touching the thing, but as touching the manner thereof."
††††††††††† Weston.--"Hear, ye people, this is the argument:--
††††††††††† "That which was forbidden in the Old Testament, is commanded in the New.
††††††††††† "To drink blood was forbidden in the Old Testament, and commanded in the New:
††††††††††† "Ergo, It is very blood that we drink in the New."
††††††††††† Latimer.--"It is commanded spiritually to be drunk. I grant it is blood drunk in the New Testament, but we receive it spiritually."
††††††††††† Pie.--"It was not forbidden spiritually in the old law."
††††††††††† Latimer.--"The substance of blood is drunk; but not in one manner."
††††††††††† Pie.--"It doth not require the same manner of drinking."
††††††††††† Latimer.--"It is the same thing, not the same manner. I have no more to say."
††††††††††† [Here Weston cited the place of Chrysostom, of Judas's treason: "O the madness of Judas He made bargain with the Jews for thirty pence to sell Christ, and Christ offered him his blood, which he sold."]
††††††††††† Latimer.--"I grant he offered to Judas his blood, which he sold, but in a sacrament."
††††††††††† Weston.--"Because ye can defend your doctors no better, ye shall see what worshipful men ye hang upon, and one that hath been of your mind shall dispute with you.-- Master Cartwright, I pray you dispute."
††††††††††† Cartwright.--"Reverend father, because it is given me in commandment to dispute with you, I will do it gladly. But first understand, ere we go any further, that I was in the same error that you are in: but I am sorry for it, and do confess myself to have erred. I acknowledge mine offence, and I wish and desire God, that you may also repent with me."
††††††††††† Latimer.--"Will you give me leave to tell what hath caused Master Doctor here to recant? It is 'the pain of the law,' which hath brought you back, and converted you, and many more; the which letteth many to confess God. And this is a great argument, there are few here can dissolve it."
††††††††††† Cartwright.--"That is not my cause; but I will make you this short argument, by which I was converted from mine errors.
††††††††††† "If the true body of Christ be not really in the sacrament, all the whole church hath erred from the apostles' time.
††††††††††† "But Christ would not suffer his church to err:
††††††††††† "Ergo, It is the true body of Christ."
††††††††††† Latimer.--"The popish church hath erred, and doth err. I think for the space of six or seven hundred years, there was no mention made of any eating but spiritually: for, before these five hundred years, the church did ever confess a spiritual manducation. But the Romish church begat the error of transubstantiation. My Lord of Canterbury's book handleth that very well, and by him I could answer you, if I had him."
††††††††††† Cartwright.--"Linus and all the rest do confess the body of Christ to be in the sacrament: and St. Augustine also, upon Psalm xcviii., upon this place, Adorate scabellum pedum, &c., granteth that it is to be worshipped."
††††††††††† Latimer.--"We do worship Christ in the heavens, and we do worship him in the sacrament: but the massing worship is not to be used.'
††††††††††† Smith.--"Do you think that Cyril was of the ancient church:"
††††††††††† Latimer.--"I do think so."
††††††††††† Smith --"He saith,' That Christ dwelleth in us corporally.' These be Cyril's words of the mystical benediction."
††††††††††† Latimer.--"That 'corporally' hath another understanding than you do grossly take it."
††††††††††† [Here Smith repeateth these words of Cyril, "By the communicating of the body of Christ, Christ dwelleth in us corporally."]
††††††††††† Latimer.--"The solution of this, is in my Lord of Canterbury's book."
††††††††††† Smith.--"Cyril was no papist, and yet these be his words, 'Christ dwelleth in us corporally:' but you say, be dwelleth in us spiritually."
††††††††††† Latimer.--"I say, both; that he dwelleth in us both corporally and spiritually, according to his meaning: spiritually by faith, and corporally by taking our flesh upon him. For I remember I have read this in my Lord of Canterbury's book."
††††††††††† Weston.--"Because your learning is let out to farm, and shut up in my Lord of Canterbury's book, I will recite unto you a place of St. Ambrose, where be saith, 'We see the chief priest coming unto us, and offering blood,' &c. Likewise both Augustine on Psalm xxxviii., and Chrysostom, concerning the incomprehensible nature of God, say, Non solum homines, &c."
††††††††††† Latimer.--"I am not ashamed to acknowledge mine ignorance; and these testimonies are more than I can bear away."
††††††††††† Weston.--"Then you must leave some behind you, for lack of carriage."
††††††††††† Latimer.--"But for Chrysostom, he hath many figurative speeches, and emphatical locutions in many places; as in that which you have now recited: but he saith not, 'For the quick and the dead:' He taketh the celebration for the sacrifice."
††††††††††† Weston.--"You shall hear Chrysostom again, upon Acts ix., 'What say you? The host in the hands of the priest,' &c.:-- He doth not call it a cup of wine."
††††††††††† Latimer.--"Ye have mine answer there with you in a paper: and yet he calleth it not, a propitiatory sacrifice."
††††††††††† Weston. You shall hear it to be so: and I bring another place of Chrysostom out of the same treatise, 'It was not rashly instituted by the apostles,' &c."
††††††††††† Latimer.--"He is too precious a thing for us to offer; he offereth himself."
††††††††††† Weston.--"here, in another place of Chrysostom to the people of Antioch, and also to the Philippians, he saith, 'There should be a memory and sacrifice for the dead.'"
††††††††††† Latimer.--"I do say, that the holy communion beareth the name of a sacrifice, because it is a sacrifice memorative."
††††††††††† Weston.--"How say you to the sacrifice of the dead?"
††††††††††† Latimer.--"I say, that it needeth not, and it booteth not."
††††††††††† Weston.--"Augustine, in his Enchiridion, saith, 'We must not deny that the souls of the dead are relieved by the devotion of their friends which are living, when the sacrifice of the Mediator is offered for them:'-- where he proveth the verity of Christ's body, and praying for the dead. And it is said, that the same Augustine said mass for his mother."
††††††††††† Latimer.--"But that mass was not like yours, which thing doth manifestly appear in his writings, which are against it in every place. And Augustine is a reasonable man, he requireth to be believed no further than he bringeth Scripture for his proof, and agreeth with God's word."
††††††††††† Weston.--"In the same place he proveth a propitiatory sacrifice, and that upon an altar; and no oyster-board."
††††††††††† Latimer.--"It is the Lord's table, and no oyster-board. It may be called an altar, and so the doctors call it in many places: but there is no propitiatory sacrifice, but only Christ. The doctors might be deceived in some points, though not in all things. I believe them when they say well."
††††††††††† Cole.--"Is it not a shame for an old man to lie? You say, you are of the old fathers' faith where they say well; and yet ye are not."
††††††††††† Latimer.--"I am of their faith when they say well. I refer myself to my Lord of Canterbury's book wholly herein."
††††††††††† Smith.--"Then are not you of Chrysostom's faith, nor of St. Augustine's faith."
††††††††††† Latimer.--"I have said, when they say well, and bring Scripture for them, I am of their faith. And further Augustine requireth not to be believed."
††††††††††† Weston.--"Origen, homily thirteen upon Leviticus--"
††††††††††† Latimer.--"I have but one word to say: 'the sacramental bread' is called a propitiation, because it is a sacrament of the propitiation. What is your vocation?"
††††††††††† Weston.--"My vocation is at this time to dispute; otherwise I am a priest, and my vocation is to offer."
††††††††††† Latimer.--"Where have you that authority given you to offer?"
††††††††††† Weston.--"Hoc facite, Do this: for facite in that place, is taken for offerte, that is, offer."
††††††††††† Latimer.--"Is facere nothing but 'to sacrifice?' Why, then, no man must receive the sacrament bat priests only: for there may none other offer but priests.--Ergo, there may none receive but priests."
††††††††††† Weston.--"Your argument is to be denied."
††††††††††† Latimer.--"Did Christ then offer himself at his supper?"
††††††††††† Pie.--"Yea, he offered himself for the whole world."
††††††††††† Latimer.--"Then if this word 'do ye,' signify 'sacrifice ye,' it followeth, as I said, that none but priests only ought to receive the sacrament, to whom it is only lawful to sacrifice: and where find you that, I pray you?"
††††††††††† Weston.--"Forty year agone, whither could you have gone to have found your doctrine?'"
††††††††††† Latimer.--"The more cause we have to thank God, that hath now sent the light into the world."
††††††††††† Weston.--"The light? nay, light and lewd preachers; for you could not tell what you might have. Ye altered and changed so often your communions and altars; and all for this one end, to spoil and rob the church."
††††††††††† Latimer.--"These things pertain nothing to me; I must not answer for other men's deeds, but only for mine own."
††††††††††† Weston.--"Well, Master Latimer, this is our intent, to will you well, and to exhort you to come to yourself, and remember, that without Noah's ark there is no health. Remember what they have been, that were the beginners of your doctrine; none but a few flying apostates, running out of Germany for fear of the faggot. Remember what they have been which have set forth the same in this realm: a sort of fling-brains and light-heads, which were never constant in any one thing; as it was to be seen in the turning of the table, where, like a sort of apes, they could not tell which way to turn their tails, looking one day west, and another day east; one that way, and another this way. They will be like (they say) to the apostles, they will have no churches. A hovel is good enough for them. They come to the communion with no reverence. They get them a tankard, and one saith, I drink, and I am thankful. The more joy of thee, saith another. And in them was it true that Hilary saith, 'We make every year and every month a faith.' A runagate Scot did take away the adoration or worshipping of Christ in the sacrament, by whose procurement that heresy was put into the last communion-book: so much prevailed that one man's authority at that time. You never agreed with the Zurichers, or the Germans, or with the church, or with yourself. Your stubbornness cometh of a vain-glory, which is to no purpose: for it will do you no good when a faggot is in your beard. And we see all, by your own confession, how little cause you have to be stubborn, for your learning is in feoffer's hold. The queen's Grace is merciful, if ye will turn."
††††††††††† Latimer.--"You shall have no hope in me to turn. I pray for the queen daily, even from the bottom of my heart, that she may turn from this religion."
††††††††††† Weston.--"Here you all see the weakness of heresy against the truth: he denieth all truth, and all the old fathers."
††††††††††† Here all good readers may see, how this glorious prolocutor triumpheth: but whether he hath the victory or no, that I suppose they have yet neither heard nor seen.-- And give, that he had the victory, yet what great marvel was it, disputing as he did, non sine suo Theseo, that is, not without his tippling cup standing at his elbow all the time of his disputation; not without a privy noting and smiling of them that beheld the matter, but especially at that time, when Dr. Ridley, disputing with one of the opponents, the said prolocutor took the cup, and holding it in his hand, said to the opponent, Urge hoc, urge hoc; nam hoc facie pro nobis. In which words, as he moved no little matter of laughter to the beholders thereof, so I thought here also not to leave the same unmentioned, somewhat also to delight the reader withal, after his tedious weariness in reading the story thereof.